Precisely when in 1914 did the GT end???
Writing to the Society about these questions was obviously considered prior to posting such here. However, I don't want to bother them with questions that may have obvious answers, nor do I want to submit a question based on an erroneous understanding of their teachings.
This is not an issue that involves 2500 year old historical evidence. There are thousands of people alive that lived through WWI. The dates and events are uncontested.
Thus, I must be overlooking something obvious, OR I am incorrect in my understanding of the Society's Revelation interpretation.
Someone please critique the 3rd paragraph of my original post, and tell me whether this extremely brief summary accurately relates the Society's teachings on Revelation?
JCole: I’m sorry, but please help me out here. From your expressions I assumed that you are JW. –i.e. “I have been asking this question since studying the Babylon the Great book back in the '60s. “ also: “…We are also taught …”, emphasis on ‘We’. And you mentioned talking to your elders about it. However this last post of yours has me wondering, “nor do I want to submit a question based on an erroneous understanding of their teachings.” Now it’s ‘their teachings’. Are you a witness or not? This is important as it will help me to understand what you do or do not know.
Third paragraph: “Revelation says the rider of the fiery-colored horse rides AFTER Jesus rides on the white horse. We are also taught that WWI was the result of Jesus' coronation, his throwing Satan to the earth, and Satan and the nations reacting against earth's new King.”
*** re 22-4 5 John Beholds the Glorified Jesus *** "The major fulfillment of that prophecy started with the desolating of the kingdom of Judah, which is indicated by Bible evidence to have been completed by October 607 B.C.E. Revelation 12:6, 14 shows that 3 1/2 times amounts to 1,260 days; hence, seven times (twice that number) must be 2,520 days. Reckoning “a day for a year,” we arrive at 2,520 years as the duration of the “seven times.” (Ezekiel 4:6) Therefore, Christ Jesus began his heavenly rule in the latter part of 1914. The erupting of the first world war in that year marked “a beginning of pangs of distress” that have continued to plague mankind."
Do you have this publication? Do you have the Watchtower CD library? I don’t know what material you may or may not have.
"their"= Society. (Refer to context.)
Have all hardcopy pubs. No CD-ROM.
AND, I should have added:
How does the Revelation Book excerpt explain one single issue or question that I have raised?
JCole: "tell me whether this extremely brief summary accurately relates the Society's teachings on Revelation?"
I thought that's what I was doing with the quotation from the Revelation Book. Yes, your summary is substantially correct. It has been expressed several ways in different publications but basically the idea is that Satan, upon being cast upon the earth became enraged and stirred the nations up to world war. Now there have been some variations on this from publication to publication, but that's the gist of it. Now, what is your point?
I would think that my point is fairly obvious. If Jesus wasn't enthroned until sometime in Oct 1914, with time then being allowed for the heavenly war, and then additional time being allowed for Satan to stir up WWI, how does reconcile with the undisputable fact that WWI began, and was well under way by Oct 1914.
Why does this appear so elementary to me, and apparently, so complex to everyone else?
I'll be the first to acknowledge that I may be missing something. That's why I posted this to begin with. I thought I would get help to either understand the obvious, or catch what I was missing. Frankly, it is amazing to me that noone apparently has an answer.
JCole: Let me preface my reply with this disclaimer: I'm not entirely convinced that Jesus was enthroned in 1914, consequently I'm not convinced that WWI was a direct result of that enthronement. BUT.... IF (Big, big IF) it did happen, Satan would certainly be aware of the impending war (a war supposedly waged to prevent the enthronement of Jesus as king of the Messianic Kingdom thereby effectively eliminating said Kingdom before its establishment) and there is nothing that I see that would prevent him from some preliminary preparations for that cosmic conflict. Such preparations could include setting into motion events that would plunge the world into global war. For what purpose? Perhaps as a diversion for his own covert operations in preparation for the battle, maybe just for meanness, I don't know. Whatever his reasons, I can't see anything that would prevent him from putting into motion the mechanism that finally resulted in WWI prior to the war that broke out in heaven. WWI need not be just a retaliatory action on the part of Satan at being ousted from heaven. It could have very well been a well-orchestrated and calculated move to help him win the war. He may have timed events here on earth so that his attack on the heavenly hosts would coincide precisely when the world was embroiled in global carnage for whatever advantage that would give him. That would mean that WWI would begin before the war in heaven broke out in order for it to build up momentum to be at the precise stage that would give him the greatest advantage when he made his move.
Just one possibility as I see it.
Now, along those same lines... How much Scriptural proof exists to make the correlation between the dream that Nebuchadnezzar had and the establishment of the Kingdom? Another point: 'time, times, and half a time' is interpreted as 'three and a half times'. Why does 'times' have to be only 'two'? It's an indefinite plural. Why couldn't it be 'three' or 'four', etc.? The very mechanism used to 'determine' the length of a time is very dubious. Even if the 'times' of the Revelation are 360 days, why would the 'times' of Daniel's prophecy necessarily be the same? Why did Jesus make no mention of that prophecy in connections with his 'return'? Why did none of the Christian writers mention it?
Someone have some input on this?
I appreciate your lengthy attempt to reconcile the 1914 events, but you missed one of the main points. The rider of the white horse rides BEFORE the ride of the fiery-colored horse. per Revelation.
As for your questions about Neb, "times", etc., don't you think these should be a separate thread of your own?
JCole: I'll attempt a shorter reply.
There is obviously an overlapping of events here. Inasmuch as the ride of the fiery red horse is a result of the enthronement of the King, it's no more than fitting that it follows the ride of the white horse although the war actually begins before the enthronement. IT IS BECAUSE OF THE FORTHCOMING RIDE OF THE WHITE HORSE THAT THERE IS WAR. WAR is the result of the upcoming enthronement. The enthronement is not the result of the war. The war EVENTUALLY escalate to it's global scale AFTER the enthronement takes place.
Apology: Didn't mean to 'corrupt' your thread with my musings.
To see is to see all.
Edited by - Ben on 25 April 2000 22:49:29