I had a few questions on your thoughts about Matthew 7:15-23.

by Check_Your_Premises 11 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Check_Your_Premises

  I had a few questions on your thoughts about Matthew 7:15-23.

  First off Jesus identifies false prophets by their fruits. He then says that a rotten tree can only bear bad fruit, and a good tree can only bear good fruit. But doesn't a false prophet have to provide some good fruit for people to follow. Can any person be only good or only bad? What then is this fruit?

  In verse 23 Jesus says He will tell those calling on His name to "get away from me you workers of lawlessness." How would you respond to someone who says this implies that Jesus will reject those who are not following certain rules? What if they didn't know about certain rules, or think that they were being disobedient? For instance let's say it is actually wrong to celebrate Christmas, but you did because it didnt violate your conscience. Will Christ reject you?
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  skyman

  I think you have to look at it several way's. One as the Witness you are not allowed to believe that you are of the 144,000 and if this is true then the bible is not written to you but only for them too follow they come under the more loftier Laws. But what if the bible is not true, and you could prove it? Would you think the scripture then is important? Please read the Books by Tony Bushby the "THE BIBLE FRUAD and "THE SECRET IN THE BIBLE" The books might set you free!!! Please when you do, look up the references so you know the truth. Don't take his word for it. Then if this opens your mind just alittle... google the history of YAHWEH and you'll find some answers there also. Then go and read the other books of the bible like the book of "Creation" the book of "Adam and Eve" http://www.earth-history.com/Pseudepigrapha/FB-Eden/fbe-intro1-2.htm Open your mind to what is really going on. Read remember The Truth has nothing to fear if it is the Truth. Russell once said a Truth is the Truth no matter if it is Satan telling the Truth it is still the Truth. He said this when asked if Satan was givening him his inforamtion. The same is today if the Bible is True is will hold up to examining it.
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  Check_Your_Premises

  Thanks Sky,

  I do have a lot of questions about the Bible, it's origins, it's authenticity, and if the canon is legitimate. For instance I am aware that many of the concepts are completely unoriginal. The virgin birth, and the concept of a benevolent, sacrificial diety predate Christianity. I am aware of this.

  As I stand I am yet a Christian. I do believe in God because the order I see around me confounds the idea of a chaotic existence. I accept the idea of a sacrificial diety because it does make sense to me in context of Jewish tradition, and the logical progression of a benevolent Creator who made us in His image and yet to have free will.

  Do I believe the Bible is the perfect, complete rendering of the word of God? No I couldn't make that case.

  However for the sake of argument, as I stand today, I am willing to accept the assumption that it is. You see unless a conclusion follows from it's premise statements alone, it cannot be known to be true or false, only likely or unlikely. However great those books are, and however much you think you know, the best you could hope to tell me is that the Bible is unlikely to be God's word. So right now I do accept that assumption for the sake of arguments I need to make today, which was the point of my questions.

  See my mind isn't necessarily closed. I don't believe in closed paradigms. I think the truth can survive perfectly well in an open and questioning paradigm. The reality is that my mind can only think about one thing at a time. Right now the most pressing questions I have are the ones above.

  But thanks for checking_my_premises,
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  M.J.

  Here's how I might explain it.

  One can only bear good fruit through the Spirit of God:

  Rom 7:4-6

  So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, [a] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

  Additional clarification on which fruit is GOOD:

  Phil 1:11

  11 filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ—to the glory and praise of God.

  In contrast, all of the holy acts of religious men are as filthy rags to God: (Isa 64:6):

  All of us have become like one who is unclean,
  and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
  we all shrivel up like a leaf,
  and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

  A good article: http://www.freeminds.org/doctrine/rules.htm
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  Terry

  
  
  
  
  

  Waxed fruit looks exactly like real fruit. It is for decoration and display purposes. Advertisers often use it in display cases to represent the meal they offer. It doesn's spoil and always looks appetizing.

  In the case of religious "fruits" you have language and activity which APPEAR APPETISING from a spiritual standpoint.

  The door to door activity of Jehovah's Witnesses appears to be a faithful obedience to the command in Matthew 24:14. But, stop!! What is the TASTE and AFTEREFFECT of eating that waxed fruit?

  There is no nourishment! It is wax in every sense. No nutrition at all.

  The sole purpose of the preaching activity is to call attention to the mediator between mankind and god which is NOT JESUS, but rather the substitute mediator THE GOVERNING BODY.

  Once the switch is complete only obedience can be tolerated or sure death at Armageddon (always imminent!) is wielded like a club.

  Kingdom Halls are the detention centers for prisoners of the Faithful and Discreet Slaves. None can escape.

  These are the "fruits" we are all too familiar with.

  T.
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  MerryMagdalene

  As far as I can tell, this section is simply saying that it doesn't matter how Christian and how good a person claims to be (wolves in sheeps clothing), if that is a false front and they are not doing God's will and are even actually doing harm to people (using them, abusing them, feeding off them), they will be exposed for what they truly are.

  No matter how good they try to appear to be, the final results of what they do and teach are obviously hurtful.

  In context, it's not about people who simply aren't perfect (all good) or who make mistakes or break laws (of which they may not be aware). It's about people who pretend to be good and to be Christian in order to take advantage of others for their own gain. And so they are recognised by Christ as laboring in violation of law or working illegality and will certainly not be rewarded for it.

  ~Merry
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  skyman

  Terry I could not have said it better. You only have to go as far as the UN Deal to see the truth about the TROOF. When I called and asked the Information Desk why the facts they said was true did not match up to the facts I found when I did my research about joining the UN the brother asked me if I have ever heard of Spiritual Warfare I told him yes and asked was he telling me that I had spritual warfare done to me he only answered by given me information to look up. What I found was it does not matter if you are one of JW's or not they can use Theocratic Warfare on us. That was the end for me how many times had they done this in the past to us????? How many more time would they do this to me if I stayed???? So never again could I believe them. They know they lied and were not ashamed of it.!!!!!!
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  peacefulpete

  Matthew shows a Jewish mindedness absent or diminished in the other 3 Canonical gospels. The author meant Law-lessness. Antinomism (Pauline or otherwise) was felt the greatest threat to the faith. He made clear that not one word of the Law was to be abolished (eg.5:17). Here he was specifically condemning Christians that disregarded the Law.
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  JCanon

  In this particular case, when Jesus rejects, it is of the would-be-anointed, the "sons of the kingdom" who become the "grapes of wrath" at the last moment. Another scripture though sets the context that those rejected will claim...

  Then YOU will start saying, ‘We ate and drank in front of you, and you taught in our broad ways.’ 27 But he will speak and say to YOU , ‘I do not know where YOU are from. Get away from me, all YOU workers of unrighteousness!’ 28 There is where [ YOUR ] weeping and the gnashing of [ YOUR ] teeth will be, when YOU see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves thrown outside.

  In this case, again, these are the potential "sons of the kingdom" and thus those who believe and should know better, and further Christ had taught before them, so there is little excuse. Apparently at some point, the rejected Christ and his teachings. Perhaps because he performed not enough "signs" for them. But then when the gate is closed to the kingdom, they realize it's near the end and want to get into the kingdom but Christ rejects them, because he knows they had a chance earlier and were in line for the kingdom but proved to be "foolish virgins."

  This is why they are both crying and "gnashing their teeth." We gnash our teeth when we just miss something we could have had but somehow missed. Like going to Vegas and playing the same 10 numbers hundreds of times and not winning, then with the last dollar, you decide to change the numbers and Boom! The original numbers you had always played hit! OUCH! You gnash your teeth with regret because you were soooo close, and just missed by a hair.

  So those who are rejected are rejected because they were lazy or too busy or some other lame excuse for not focussing at the right time, and their places in the kingdom is taken by others.

  JC
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  M.J.

  Another question. Does this mean that WTS people from 80 years ago would be "practicers of lawlessness" since they didn't have the right rules down?