The facts on crucifixion, stauros, and the "torture stake"

by Leolaia 175 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  Hobo Ken

  Are you being deliberately obtuse Jonah?

  The point in leo's thread is to show that the Watchtower society, specifically J.F. Rutherford, has misrepresented the information at hand for their own reasons.

  They are intellectually dishonest in the way they present their teachings and beliefs in the pages of their literature particularly when they reference other sources.

  The "issue" of the cross is one created by the WTS themselves to distinguish them from "pagan" Christendom.

  Whether we should be wearing crosses or not is another issue entirely. The fact the organisation says we shouldn't is irrelevant at best.

  What right do they have to tell anyone what to do when they are guilty of the lies , cover-ups, misrepresentations and distortion of facts?

  The thread is to prove that they have employed these very tactics in relation to their claim that Jesus died on a stake not a cross.

  Matt
• 

  Kenneson

  It's quite understandable to see why Christians adopted symbols. It doesn't involve only the cross. For example, during times of persecution a fish symbol was used and this in spite of Deut. 4:18. No one would suggest that the early Christians were worshipping the pagan god Dagon! No, they had in mind several things: Jesus multiplied the fish and loaves; many of the first disciples were fishermen and moreover, Jesus told his followers to be fishers of men. This was a symbol that they could recognize each other without raising the suspicion of their persecutors. The holy spirit was represented by a dove or fire because the Bible uses those symbols. The symbols were only reminders, not objects of worship. I would say that one of the main symbols used by Christians today is the Bible. The Book points to the living Word of God, Jesus, but no one should worship a book anymore than a cross or any other object.
• 

  Hobo Ken

  Well put Kenneson.

  Matt.
• 

  jwfacts

  Jonah - The opposite is the case. One reason the cross started to be used was to prevent pagan idolatry. In "The Mandylion Mystery" Dan Goddard explains no one is sure what the face of Jesus looked like because early Chrisitans were careful not to make depictions of Jesus, in an attempt to prevent pagans idolising his image. Symbols such as the cross or fish were used instead to identify Christians. I am sure you would not be offended by use of symbols, since every company or church uses symbols or logos as forms of identification - such as the Watchtower logo.

  Why choose an instrument of torture and death to represent their faith in a living and resurrected Christ?

  Let Paul answer that question.

  Galatians 6:14 "Never may it occur that I should boast, except in the torture stake [cross] of our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom the world has been impaled [crucified] to me and I to the world."
• 

  Hobo Ken

  Nice points JWfacts. Doesn't the Bible in Revelation describe the actual WORSHIP of Jesus in the symbollic form of a Lamb?

  This can't be idolatry since it's in the Bible, but then a lamb is all fluffy and cute , nothing like "an instrument of torture".........

  Matt
• 

  Terry

  Worship is tricky business.

  To some groups of people it comes easily as a ritual participation.

  For others, it is a very personal meditative state.

  The Hebrews' version of worship was certainly ritual.

  Early Christians were Jews before they were "other".

  As each new convert was absorbed into the story and the "meaning" of a Messiah/Jesus it became a question of "WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH WHAT I'M ALREADY DOING"?

  For a Jew, the actual worship of Jesus would certainly have come hard. Was David worshipped? Was Abraham? Was Moses?

  For Pagans, accustomed to accomodate the beliefs and rituals of others (as a kind of polite superstitious courtesy) it was more of the same with JESUS as an object of devotion.

  There was considerable discored to be had!

  The CROSS would have come easily to CONSTANTINE as a worshipper from pagan Sol Invictus cult background. Surely, the IN HOC SIGNO VINCES (by this sign you will conquer) was the beginning of a brandname Christianity practice.

  The weight of Constantine's decrees in orthodox welding of unity undoubtedly carried with it the unifying symbology of his beloved CROSS SIGN.

  The Watchtower certainly found it useful at first!!

  

  
• 

  dgp

  Wonderful
• 

  Kravchenyuk

  Where do download book Crucifixion in Antiquity Gunnar Samuelsson in pdf or word format text?

  Thanks.
• 

  AnnOMaly

  Kravchenyuk, click HERE.
• 

  erbie

  Wow, thanks!

  That's the most information on this subject that I've ever seen in one place-or indeed ever seen.

  Thankyou for sharing it with us.

  Do you think the WT$ would read it?

  Or have it read to them perhaps!