Udeserved kindness Vs Grace

by theotherside 37 Replies latest members adult

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  Euphemism

  Candidly... thanks!

  Narkissos... I agree that the translation wasn't some sort of deliberate plot to make Witnesses feel bad about themselves. Nor is it a technical mistranslation, as 'accurate knowledge' is. It's simply a stylistic issue, but IMHO one that does have semantic implications.

  If you'll allow me an analogy, suppose a friend of yours was destitute, and you gave him money for food. You could describe that as 'charity', or as 'help'. Both descriptions would be accurate, and yet the former would be far more humilliating than the latter.

  So it seems--to my non-expert opinion--that by making explicit the undeservedness that is implicit in the original, the term 'undeserved kindness' does affect the connotations of the text.
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  Narkissos

  Euph,

  I think humiliating man to glorify God is an integral part of the Pauline strategy (Romans 3:4,19; 11:32 are symptomatic examples).

  But I totally agree with your careful phrasing:

  by making explicit the undeservedness that is implicit in the original, the term 'undeserved kindness' does affect the connotations of the text.

  This is the trap of overtranslation, which is a minor fault when it overemphasises the actual emphasis of the text (in the case of Pauline lit.), and turns to a major fault when it doesn't coincide with it (e.g. John).
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  diamondblue1974

  I dont know what you think but the term undeserved kindness to me was always used to reinforce the fact that we are not worthy of gods love, kindness or reward; hence reinforcing the WTS members lack of self esteem. Call my cynical I know...

  'we are not worthy we are not worthy!!!'
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  theotherside

  db74 I think that is the crux of my observation ,,,its all about connotation...it dont really convey the right idea about God in alot of ways..I really believe Fred Franz and the GB wanted to make the organization so different from main stream Christianity that its obvious that was his objective....For instance no Christmas......if we dont celebrate Jesus' birth then jws aint gonna celebrate thiers either.....how about a GREEN bible? Lets make the kingdom of god a government and hey lets make the UN the beast that stands in opposition to the kingdom and of course I could go on....but really is there a need?
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  Honesty

  I think as a JW, it's hard to give grace because it's never received.

  The main difference between the average JW and the average Christian is what Grace is to the Christian and what Undeserved Kindness is to the JW.

  Christian and Grace = Love for God and love for all peoples.

  JW and Undeserved Kindness = Unloving towards anyone but themselves because all non- JW's are going to be effed by the WT God at the Big A so they aren't worthy of love anyway. JW's can't love one another. The running to the elders to report all kinds of perceived wrongdoing proves it.
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  Terry

  When I have referred to God in terms that implied God is real, my problem has been in proving it without using logic and reason because logic and reason are the tools of a skeptic.
  
  My other problems with proving God is real has been (1) equal application of principle, (2) dealing with the validity of objective reality, and (3) finding a rational concept to profile a god not based on tradition or superstition.
  
  Why not apply the concept of forgiveness to humans? Everyone can relate and it doesn't require assumptions. Everything a human can do or relate to is by necessity human in nature and outlook.

  Hot damn, Garybuss; you da man!

  Superb.

  T.
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  carla

  Having never been jw, and husband seemingly fully indoctrinated, we have tried to discuss this issue. He seems to have no concept of what 'undeserved kindness' means. I have tried to explain it many, many ways. He seemed to get it a little when I relayed the following- (forget for a moment any jw disgust with transplants etc...) Let's say your child needed a heart transplant, without, the child WILL die, lo and behold a heart becomes available, you are joyful, the operation goes well. The child is expected to fully recover and lead a productive life. Your joy is overflowing, then you remember, in order for your child to live, someone else's has died. Your joy is tempered by the loss of anothers. How could you ever 'repay' this family? You never could. No amount of money, nothing you could offer could replace this precious child. They gave you and your child a gift, the gift of life. An unselfish act for your benefit. In their grief, they thought of you and the life of your child. You simply cannot 'pay' back something like that. He seemed to understand for a fleeting moment, then all was lost as the indoctrination kicked in. What does anybody have to 'offer' God? If all is His and created by Him, what does any of us actually have to offer Him?Other than our faith. Undeserved kindness is what we get instead of what we deserve, that is what grace is. Thank heaven we don't 'get' what we deserve. Even those who love us can show grace, they often have to love us and show grace even when we don't deserve it. Or we have to find a way to show 'grace' to someone we love. Even if we don't know how, and no one seems to be able to tell us how. That is hard, trying to show grace when you have no idea how you can. Yet, everyone else tells you, you should. still trying to learn how to show grace myself, the jw's make it extremely hard, carla
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  theotherside
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  Terry

  JUSTICE demands that each party in a disagreement get only what they deserve according to the merits of their case.

  If God grants man something UNdeserved it is UNjust.

  You see, this is all arbitrary and not based on justice at all. There is nothing FAIR about holding babies accountable and making them deserving of death.

  Choice leads to action and action leads to accountability. A baby, a toddler, an adolescent and an adult are stages of human life. It is unjust (unfair) to hold a child accountable in the same way you hold an adult accountable because of the limits of choice and behavior at those stages of life. Why? Accountable performance requires a foundation of behavior and ability.

  Further, allowing a sinless person to die for a crime he did not commit is not justice either.

  The ransom sacrifice is justice turned on its head and is senseless.

  On what basis does a god of JUSTICE violate the standards of justice? Whim?

  This doctrine is arbitrary and completely manufactured by Augustine based on Paul's kooky illogic.
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  theotherside

  Let's say your child needed a heart transplant, without, the child WILL die, lo and behold a heart becomes available, you are joyful, the operation goes well. The child is expected to fully recover and lead a productive life. Your joy is overflowing, then you remember, in order for your child to live, someone else's has died. Your joy is tempered by the loss of anothers. How could you ever 'repay' this family? You never could. No amount of money, nothing you could offer could replace this precious child. They gave you and your child a gift, the gift of life. An unselfish act for your benefit. In their grief, they thought of you and the life of your child. You simply cannot 'pay' back something like that.

  What does anybody have to 'offer' God? If all is His and created by Him, what does any of us actually have to offer Him?Other than our faith. Undeserved kindness is what we get instead of what we deserve, that is what grace is

  This thought was so profound I just coundnt let it die Thx CARLA