A challege for Bible scholars

by jaffacake 26 Replies latest jw friends

  • Leolaia

    jaffacake...About "paradise earth", see my post here:


    The heavenly paradise is described in Revelation as coming down to the earth, but there the similarities with the Watchtower doctrine end (e.g. it is not this earth, it happens after the thousand years, it happens after the resurrection of the dead and judgment, the whole earth is not made into a paradise, etc.).

  • jaffacake


    Once again, one of your posts saved on my PC for future reference, Thanks

  • Amazing1914

    So can we conclude that although apostasy is a scriptural term, and can be applied to a great revolt (2 Thess 2:3)

    The term apostasy (apostasia) is not a noun in Greek and carries no special meaning. It has a basic verb form to "stand away from" or "separate." It is closely linked to the Greek word Apostasion, which means to divorce.

    The Watchtower spin it for their own controlling cult purposes.

    Jim W.

  • Narkissos
    The term apostasy (apostasia) is not a noun in Greek

    Huh? Perhaps you mean classical Greek. It is attested in the Hellenistic period (Dionysios of Halicarnassus, Plutarch). Although the Christian technical meaning is only emerging in the NT it can be traced back to the Septuagint, e.g. 2 Chronicles 29:19:

    All the utensils that King Ahaz defiled during his reign, in his "apostasy" (en tè apostasia autou), we have made ready and cleansed.
  • Amazing1914


    Huh? Perhaps you mean classical Greek.

    There is no equivalent noun in Greek for the English noun, Apostate. Apostasia, as it was written in the Greek translations of the Bible, is a verb. I have had some good discussions on this with various Greek experts, including university professors, who have stated that Apostasia is not a common verb, and is rarely found in secular writings. Its primary usage is found in the Bible. Therefore, the Mormon, Adventist, and Watchtower usage as a noun is a modern English twist, unique to these religions. If I am in error, then please cite specific references and example where there is a Greek equivalent for the English noun, Apostate. - Jim W.

  • barry

    In the Adventist Church people who leave are sometimes called Backsliders the same term the Baptists use. The only place I have ever seen the word apostate used is in the annual figures on church members deaths apostacies etc. I have never seen the word used in the same negative way as is used by the WT Society. SDAs use the word Heritic more often but mainly in a joking sort of way. Barry

  • Narkissos


    Apostasia ("apostasy"; the earliest and most common form is apostasis) and apostatès ("apostate") are nouns, the corresponding verb is aphistèmi (infinitive aphistanai).

    Apostasia, Dionysios of Halicarnassus 7,1; Plutarch, Galba 1. LXX (Rahlfs), Joshua 22:22; 2 Chronicles 29:19; 33:19; Jeremiah 2:19; 1 Maccabees 2:15; Josephus, Vita, 43; Antiquities 13,219; Ascents of Isaiah, 2:4; NT, Acts 21:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

    Apostatès, Polybius 5,41,6; 5,57,4; Diodorus of Sicily, XV, 18; Plutarch, Romulus 9 (of a fugitive slave); Cimon 10; LXX Numbers 14:9; Joshua 22:16,19; Job 26:13; Isaiah 30:1; Daniel 3:32; 2 Maccabees 5:8; 3 Maccabees 7:3; 1 Esdras 2:17; Odes 7:32. (No NT occurrence).

    Whereas the Hellenistic context is more often political treason than religious "apostasy," the religious sense is clear in the LXX (as the instance of Ahaz which I quoted in a previous post shows).

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