Obliteration of the ego

by logansrun 59 Replies latest jw friends

  • frankiespeakin
    frankiespeakin

    Nark,

    Is it:

    "A question seeking to see beyond concepts can not be answered by the conceptual machinery of the minds vocabulary and imagination"

    Or:

    "A question seeking to see beyond concepts can not be answered"

    I'm more inclind to think that just like Quantum Physics we have only weak concepts taken from our life size world to try and discribe the sub-atomic. All such discriptions are not accurate and limited to our concepts in mathamatics, and any visual disciption is totally outof the question. How does one discribe how particles come out of "no-where" accurately with concepts of our size world? Maybe it can not be put into words to provide an accurate disciption. So I agree with both your statements here.

  • Terry
    Terry

    I've been doing some reading about the brain.

    You might find this informative:

    Seeking to understand the neurological basis for religious experience, researchers Andrew Newberg and Eugene D'Aquili performed a simple experiment. Finding a group of eight volunteers who were Zen Buddhists, they asked them to meditate in the peace and silence of a darkened room. These Buddhists had claimed that, through meditation, they could reach a state called satori, in which they experienced a sense of transcendent bliss along with a feeling of timelessness and infinity, as if they were a deeply interwoven part of all of reality. Newberg and D'Aquili wanted to find out what was going on in their minds when such a thing happened.

    When the meditating volunteers reached the apex of this state, they tugged on a string, which was Newberg and D'Aquili's cue to inject a radioactive tracer into their blood through an IV line. This tracer travels to the brain and becomes bound to the neurons that were most active, creating a "snapshot" of brain activity at that particular moment that could later be imaged through a technique called SPECT (single photon emission computed tomography).

    The imaging was done. Not surprisingly, brain regions responsible for concentration were highly active; but there was one other consistent result that stood out like a red flag. In all eight subjects, a particular region of the brain, the superior parietal lobe, showed a sharp and dramatic reduction in activity.

    The role of this brain region was already known. As discussed in Part 1 of this essay, the superior parietal lobe is the brain's "where" system. Its job is to orient the individual in three-dimensional space and help a person move through the external world, and as part of this task, it must draw a clear distinction between "self" and "not-self". For this reason, Newberg and D'Aquili call it the "orientation association area", or OAA for short. In all eight Tibetan Buddhists, the OAA had been blocked out by their deep meditative state, deprived of the sensory information it needs to build a coherent picture of the world.

    What would be the result of such a neural state? Without the OAA, the brain is unable to perceive the physical limits of the self - unable to tell where the body ends and where the world begins. (One of the meditators who took part in the study described the experience as feeling "like a loss of boundary" (Holmes 2001, p. 26)). And "[i]n that case, the brain would have no choice but to perceive that the self is endless and intimately interwoven with everyone and everything the mind senses. And this perception would feel utterly and unquestionably real" (Newberg and D'Aquili 2001, p. 6).

    Food for thought.

    Any comment?

  • frankiespeakin
    frankiespeakin

    Terry,

    It seem to match up with what has been said here and by others. The brain becomes quiet thoughts stop.

    All we have is thinking and the mind that tells us what we are,, which is all limited by concepts of the mind. I think we have to add to this what Quantum Physics is telling us too,,namely the the universe is non-local that distance and time are just illusions of our mental picture. It may very well be that all these illusions are ego related and caused by ego domination. I'm not saying the ego is bad because it definately serve a purpose but in the process the illusion of seperation causes much suffering when the tought process we call ego claims suffering and pain as mine and not just thoughts and thinking.

  • JamesThomas
    JamesThomas

    Terry, thanks for the article piece. Interesting, and points to what I have said, a wondrous sense of walls of consciousness dissolving.

    So what is true? What is the Actuality of our being? What is the reality of identity/self? Am I less, a tiny individual separate from the allness of life out there? Or am I more? Am I in fact truly inseparable from all? Is the superior parietal lobe revealing truth when it's on, or when it's off? Can we come to an undeniable and unequivocal conclusion? We can investigate second hand and read from books, scriptures, web pages, or hear from someone else what they think; and chances are we will end with far more confusion and questions than when we begone. Or we can investigate within the present moment of being, within the closest and most intimate sense of aliveness, and see what is revealed here. What is true? Who/what am I, really?

    Often a fear arises, a cognitive dissonance, that inhibits first-hand inner scrutiny and examination. We will look everywhere for truth about ourself except within ourself. We refuse to look beyond the mental: the written, spoken, and interpreted. We are comfortable in our smallness. It's as if we secretly know that if we continue to look only as far as the mind, we will remain comfortable. Lets face it, it's scary to even imagine stepping outside our protective fortification of individual identity. Only a fool would even consider it.

    Not pointing this directly at anyone, it's more of a sweeping observation, myself included.


    j

  • trevor
    trevor
    And in that case, the brain would have no choice but to perceive that the self is endless and intimately interwoven with everyone and everything the mind senses. And this perception would feel utterly and unquestionably real

    It could just be that the connection experienced with all things in meditation is real. The superior parietal lobe activity causes a separation, in order for us to perceive a separate identity, in order to function in the type of system we live in.

    Humans seem to have over developed this brain function at the expense of a more unified and connected approach to life. As a result we seem to have partially lost our telepathic powers which are still commonly active in less developed groups such as the Aborigines. It seems as though our increased academic ability seperates us from our intuition and each other.

    The question is whether meditation results in impaired awareness, that is to say losing touch with reality, or a connection with a greater reality? Are we stepping into a dream or out of one?

    This can only be answered through personal experience but then one could ask, as you have, is personal experience reliable?

    It is only when we are able to gain access to unanswered questions and to achive a greater harmony with ourselves and others as a result of meditation that we realize we are connecting with a reality that is obscured by the ego.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    About the parietal lobe...

    Is a switch truer to its switchness when it is on or off?

    The only truth of a switch is switching -- on and off.

    At the root of any awareness, consciousness, of anything we can name, there is difference.

  • Terry
    Terry

    I would certainly agree with the position that we are far MORE than the Christian religion and the Muslim Religion and the Judaism tell us we are. In Christianity we are poop on legs. In the Muslim way of believing we are slaves who must surrender and obey. In Judaism we are bound to the past and must spend eternity repeating it while we repair the world as feckless carpenters.

    The SELF is the greatest value there is because it is vanishingly short-lived and fragile.

    When I die I'll have my constituent elements recycle throughout the soil into the roots of thrumming plants and then the belly of a furry or feathered wonder to soar above the clouds into distant vistas of sweet tomorrow. But, my "i" will not be there as it is now. It will be a different configuration of possibility and promise.

    As I lay down to sleep tonight I have no guarantee my eyes will open on another day. But, as I live and breathe now I choose to witness only miracles with my eyes and the sweet sounds of living things puzzling through the mystery of their destiny.

    I am a part........I am now "I".....but...who knows tomorrow?

    Terry

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Terry:
    You appear to have a strange perspective on "the meaning" of the world's spiritual frameworks.

    Down through the ages, and no less today, they attempt to answer the "why"s that science doesn't touch. Questions about what happens when this physical form ceases to exist. Why are you dismissive of this line of enquiry?

    But, as I live and breathe now I choose to witness only miracles with my eyes and the sweet sounds of living things puzzling through the mystery of their destiny.

    And yet you clearly believe in some things untouched by these senses, for example radio and ultra-violet waves.

  • Terry
    Terry
    And yet you clearly believe in some things untouched by these senses, for example radio and ultra-violet waves.

    Nice try!

    Radio and ultraviolet waves can be originated and received with little trouble at all demonstrating not only the existence of both; but, the puerile nature of advertising and jiffy pop.

    T.

  • frankiespeakin
    frankiespeakin

    Terry,

    Have you every heard the term "naive realist" ?

    It is I think a term applied to those who only beleive what their sense tell them and accept it as reality. I'm not saying you are one but perhaps lean in that direction. Heres a few thing to concider about our 5 senses:

    What happens when we loose a sense? Does that so-called reality still exist even though it can not be sensed any more or what if we were born that way?

    Take colors for example,,is there such a thing in reality as red?,, or is red in reality just the way we see it in our thought pictures? Is not our thought picture of red just a sensation in our mind and not really "out there" where we sense it to be with our mind?

    Does the color red exist for a person that never had a sense of sight? Does the way we see red look the same to a ant, or dog?

    And what about ultra violet? We can't see it or sense it we have machines and clever thinking that tell us it is there but we can't sense it with our eyes? Would the world look vastly different if we could see ultra violet?

    What if we had more senses than our 5,, what if we had 12 senses how would the world appear in our minds then?

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