Wrong date

by tattoogrl333 44 Replies latest jw friends

  • outnfree
    outnfree

    And forgive me if I'm wrong, scholar, but isn't the conundrum over 586/587 as the fall based on different calendars? As in Jewish versus Babylonian versus Gregorian?

    tat, if most JEWISH scholars agree on the 586/587 date, who ya gonna believe? I mean, it was the Jews who were exiled and they have the same scriptures available to them for interpretation as the rest of us!

    Anybody out there that can quote CofC here for tatoogrl, where Ray and another brother from the writing department visit the expert in Rhode Island(?)? There's a quote to the effect that all the cuneiform evidence, which amounts to something like 10,000 stone witnesses would have to be a manufacturered conspiracy for the WT date of 607 BCE to be correct. HELP?!???

    outnfree

  • joelbear
    joelbear

    Tattoo,

    Ask yourself this. If Jesus Christ said no man knows the day and hour of his return, not even the son, only the father, why would that same father put cryptic clues as to the date of Christ's return in Revelation, Daniel and Ezekiel?

    Isn't it fairly clear that god wanted people to serve him because they loved him and his ways, not because they could calculate when they were going to get their reward for serving him.

    Every reference book outside of Watchtower material gives the date for the fall of Babylon as some date besides 607 BC. Of course, these books have no agenda tied to that date. Always question the agenda behind the claim. Question my agenda, question everyone's agenda. That is the only way you can cut through the propaganda of what people are saying and get to the truth, which is usually hidden.

    In the end, I think all the chronological doctrine is quite irrelevant. If you think you would be happy as a Jehovah's Witness, try it. My advice would be to delay baptism until you are quite sure, because the ramifications of changing your mind after baptism can be quite emotionally difficult to deal with (cut off from people you have become friends with and emotionally tied to).

    Look at their behavior. Talk to them. See if they are people you want to associate with and who have the same goals as you. Share your goal of covering your body with tattoos and question them about their feelings about that. Present yourself as you truly are and gauge their reactions. Get to know them and let them get to know you.

    Every religion can rationalize their belief structure. The proof in the pudding is how their belief structure affects their lives.
    Are they more loving, happier, more fulfilled with their life through their spirituality? I think you will find that there are happy fulfilled Jehovahs Witnesses and just the opposite. I think you will also find that this is true of any religious system. That is because, happiness and a sense of fulfillment and spirituality comes from within, not from a set of beliefs.

    I wish you well on your journey. I have been quite interested in your posts. If you are interested in reading more about my beliefs visit my web page www.joelbear.com and click on Lifeism. I make no claims to have found a higher truth, this page simply contains my thoughts.

    hugs

    Joel
    www.joelbear.com

  • DCs Ghost
    DCs Ghost

    just a thought i want to throw out there,
    if the second coming is spiritual then how can we time/date it with physical time???

    think about this for a few minutes. . . .

    the second coming which is a supposed spiritual event, would be seen by spiritual eyes not physical ones, making it a personal event for the individual to experience on his/her own and at his/her own time when they are ready to "see" it.

    another related issue is time,
    the bible states that a day is like a thousand years and vice versa,
    if you use this time metaphor to measure time
    then indeed what jesus said about only the father knowing the time of the end would be so
    cause in reality no one knows how SHE really measures time up there
    any attempt to predict the last days would be as accurate as Chuck Russell's measurement of the pyramids. . .

    as far as the year 0, i'm sure god knew about its inexistence. . . [8>]

    dc

  • soylibre
    soylibre

    Hi Tattoo,

    When dealing with JW's you must take into account the fact that most have very little education beyond high school. Most of what they know has been filtered thru the WTBS....if they have researched, it's usually to find a quote used in one of their publications....Keep your mind open and don't just take what they spoon feed you....As far as confronting her with what you've found....in her mind she will immediately dismiss such research because you found it in "worldly" books....she will assume they made an error...and never assume that the WTS made an error...as far as the ramifications...well considering that they tell people 1914 is the year Jesus Christ was enthroned as King, there may be a few they wouldn't want to deal with. I think you'll be okay...you've got a good head on your shoulders and you're educated...that means a lot....Knowledge is power....which is why they don't encourage their members to seek higher education....Take care....and please ignore some of these people....they just have no life.

  • bjc2012
    bjc2012

    Scholar,

    The date 607 is based also upon interpretation of biblical history but is mor credible as it establishes the beginning of the Gentile Time ending in 1914. In short, 607 works as it establishes prophecy, 586 or 587 are useless dates as these dates are 'dead ends'.

    I disagree with the above statement that the fall of Jerusalem had anything to do with the Gentile Times. There is no mention in the bible of the Gentile Times until Jesus made his statement recorded at Luke 21:24. He said: "and they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled." Notice 'Jerusalem WILL BE trampled on' (not continue to be trampled on as would be the case if it had started in 607 or 587). The verb phrase, will be, is in the future tense, not present or past tense. So the trampling had not begun when Jesus made this statement. Revelation further shows the length of time this trampling would take. Revelation 11:2 says: "But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple, cast it clear out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for forty-two months." Yes, the length of the Gentile Times is forty-two months, not 2,520 years. I am not aware of any prophesy that is predicated upon knowing the exact date of the fall of Jerusalem.

    bjc

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    I'm beginning to understand that scholar is about as much of a scholar as Fredhall is. The guy is as ignorant as they come.

    First, the date 539 B.C. for the fall of Babylon was originally established pretty solidly around 1900 by first establishing the date 605 B.C. for Nebuchadnezzar's ascension to the throne, then 597 B.C. for the overthrow of Jerusalem where the Babylonians removed Jehoiachin to Babylon, and then working forward in time through the various Babylonian kings to Cyrus. Only later did historians find enough information to start with a date later than 539 and work backward to it, as the WTS now does. The fact that such solid historical information settles on 539 B.C. shows how solid that date is, and how solid the dates are that allow historians to work forward or backward to converge on it.

    Of course, according to historians other dates are considered even more solidly established than 539 is for the fall of Babylon. The date 597 B.C. for the overthrow of Jerusalem and the capture and deportation of Jehoiachin is considered one of the most secure dates in Neo-Babylonian history. So is 605 B.C. for Nebuchadnezzar's ascension year. There exist astronomically dated cuneiform texts that solidly indicate that Nebuchadnezzar's 37th year was in 568 B.C., and that prove conclusively that certain years in his predecessors' reigns occurred in certain years (I forget the details and don't have access to my library at this time). This allows historians to work forward from roughly 650 B.C., through the various Babylonian kings that are mentioned in various texts, and arrive at 605 for Nebuchadnezzar's ascension.

    There are no major holes in the accepted Neo-Babylonian chronology. It even fits perfectly with the Bible. JW chronology, on the other hand, cannot explain certain Bible passages, and it has no support from the most reliable historical sources. Anyone without a prior committment to JW theology has no trouble figuring out which chronology is reliable.

    AlanF

  • GodRules
    GodRules

    Interesting article by Charles Russell. In 1876, he was looking at 1914 as a very significant year.

    THE BIBLE EXAMINER
    OCTOBER 1876

    GENTILE TIMES: WHEN DO THEY END?

    BY CHAS. T. RUSSELL

    "Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." - Luke 21:24.

    Doubtless our Lord intended to communicate to His disciples some knowledge, and possibly it was addressed more to the disciples in our day, than to the early church.

    Let us then search what times the prophecy, which was in Christ, did signify. Of course, if it be one of the secret things of God, we cannot find out; but if a secret, why should Jesus mention it? If, on the contrary, it is revealed it belongs to us. Shall we guess and suppose? No: let us go to God's treasure-house; let us search the Scriptures for the key.

    Jesus does not foretell its treading under foot of the Gentiles, as Rome had her foot upon them at that time. He does tell us, however, how long it will continue so, even the disciples thought "that it was he which should have DELIVERED Israel."

    We believe that God has given the key.

    We believe He doeth nothing but he revealeth it unto His servants. Do we not find part of the key in Lev. 26:27, 33? "I, even I will chastise you seven times for your sins: . . . and I will bring your land into desolation . . . and will scatter you among the heathen." Israel did not hearken unto the Lord, but disobeyed him, and this prophecy is now being fulfilled, and has been since the days of Zedekiah, when God said, "Remove the diadem,
    take off the crown, . . . I will overturn, overturn, overturn it, . . . until He comes whose right it is, and I will give it unto Him." Comparing these Scriptures, we learn, that God has scattered Israel for a period of seven times, or until "he comes whose right" the Government is, and puts an end to Gentile rule or government. This gives us a clue at least, as to how long until the Jews are delivered. Further, Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, the head of gold, is recognized by God as the representative of the beast, or Gentile Governments. "A king of kings and wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field, and the fowls of the air, hath God given into his hand." Dan. 2:38. God had taken the crown off Zedekiah and declared the Image, of which Nebuchadnezzar is the head, ruler of the world until the kingdom of God takes its place (smiting it on its feet); and, as this is the same time at which Israel is to be delivered, (for: "Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."), we here get our second clue, viz.: these two events, noted of the Scriptures of truth- "Times of Gentiles," and "Treading of Jerusalem," are parallel periods, commencing at the same time and ending at the same time; and, as in the case of Israel, their degradation was to be for seven times, so with the dominion of the Image; it lasts seven times; for, when in his pride the "Head of Gold" ignored "The God of heaven," the glory of that kingdom (which God gave him, as a representative of the Image,) departed, and it took on its beastly character, which lasts seven times. Dan 4:23 ­ and, (prefigured by the personal degradation for seven years, of Nebuchadnazzar, the representative) until the time comes when they shall acknowledge, and "give honor to the Most High, whose Kingdom is an everlasting Kingdom." Dan 4:34: for all the ends of the earth shall remember and turn unto the Lord when He is the Governor among the nations.

    Our next question naturally, is, How long are seven times? Does God in his word, furnish us any clue from which to determine the length of that period? Yes, in Revelations we learn that three and one-half times, 42 months, and 1260 prophetic days, literal years, are the same (it has for years been so accepted by the church,) and it was so fulfilled: if three and one-half times are 1260 years, seven times would be twice as much, i.e., 2520 years. At the commencement of our Christian era, 606 years of this time had passed, (70 years captivity, and 536 from Cyrus to Christ) which deducted from 2520, would show that the seven times will end in A.D. 1914; when Jerusalem shall be delivered forever, and the Jew say of the Deliverer, "Lo, this is our God, we have waited for Him and He will save us." When Gentile Governments shall have been dashed to pieces; when God shall have poured out of his fury upon the nation, and they acknowledge, him King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

    But, some one will say, "If the Lord intended that we should know, He would have told us plainly and distinctly how long." But, no, brethren, He never does so. The Bible is to be a light to God's children; --to the world, foolishness. Many of its writings are solely for our edification upon whom the ends of the world are come. As well say that God should have put the gold on top instead of in the bowels of the earth it would be too common; it would lose much of its value. So with truth; but, "to you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom."

    We will ask, but not now answer, another question: If the Gentile Times end in 1914, (and there are many other and clearer evidences pointing to the same time) and we are told that it shall be with fury poured out; at time of trouble such as never was before, nor ever shall be; a day of wrath, etc., how long before does the church escape? as Jesus says, "watch, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape those things coming upon the world."

    Brethren, the taking by Christ of His Bride, is evidently, one of the first acts in the Judgment; for judgment must begin at the house of God.

  • Fredhall
    Fredhall

    Individual,

    Jesus give us everlasting life by dying for us. Or is this base upon falsehood? If you want to spend another 25 years to find out then go ahead.

  • ianao
    ianao

    GodRules:

    Very interesting post there. Did you notice that they were expecting the end of the Gentile Times instead of the beginning of the ending of the Gentile Times (as scholar, a loyal dub stated)?

    Jeez, I guess I would have come to that conclusion myself if "the end" hadn't come and I didn't want to admit that I was full of crap.

    "Hey, since it's not ended yet, it must be the beginning of the end!!"

    LOL

  • Patriot
    Patriot

    The sister who gives you studies will most probably ask somone "mature" for help on how to respond to your quetion. Most probably she will make arrangements for this person (maybe an elder or pioneer) to come along on the next study.

    This person will have prepared using the only book that the WTS has that tries it's darndest to explain that issue.
    This Book is the "Let you Kingdom Come" appendix to Chapter 14 ( I'm pretty sure its to chap 14).

    There is a long and drawn out explanation to the 607 issue there. So long as a matter of fact (4 pages) that most don't "get it".

    They will give you this info. and expect that to be the answer to your question. You should try to get this book before they show up so that you can counter easily to there "explanation".

    If you "insist" theyt will tell you their universal anwer to questions that they can't anwer:
    "You must wait on Jehovah and have patience, he will enlighten you at the appropriate time. But if you have a bad attitude then the Holy S. won't operate in you. Just because we don't understand certain teachings of our Creator does not mean that he is not our creator and that this in not his org. So whatever you don't understand just be humble and WAIT."

    Basically meaning go along wiht anything they say or you will be labeled as having a bad attitude and being rebellious and most probably they will drop you as a study because they will feel that they are wasting valuable time in this "end of the system" that they can be using on someone "humble".

    Believe me this is how it will play out.

    I was their "puppet" for many years and this is what my training showed me to respond.

    Maverick-

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit