Crap that hurts! Talking to an ex-LDS

by Qcmbr 36 Replies latest jw friends

  • Qcmbr
    Qcmbr

    From my experience of people who have left very few ever go to any other church. I'm not going to yank your chain and say they all still believe in the LDS faith so nothing else is good enough (but I'm sure that's how a lot of ex-anyfaiths feel).

    I think what happens is they are burnt out by church life and fancy the quiet life. Most people don't leave the LDS faith due to doctrinal problems , most just fade out of activity as it all gets a bit much. Those who do leave becasue of doctrinal issues tend to become very anti the church and generally become Born Again (because they still believe in God and left because they couldn't square the theolgy.

    Like I said most dont go to other churches ( we visit our less actives as we label them so we do get a good picture of the general situation.) Of the people who I personally know went to other churches:

    1 went JW

    1 went back to Catholicism

    0 aethist

    0 Born Again

  • Qcmbr
    Qcmbr

    From my experience of people who have left very few ever go to any other church. I'm not going to yank your chain and say they all still believe in the LDS faith so nothing else is good enough (but I'm sure that's how a lot of ex-anyfaiths feel).

    I think what happens is they are burnt out by church life and fancy the quiet life. Most people don't leave the LDS faith due to doctrinal problems , most just fade out of activity as it all gets a bit much. Those who do leave becasue of doctrinal issues tend to become very anti the church and generally become Born Again (because they still believe in God and left because they couldn't square the theolgy.

    Like I said most dont go to other churches ( we visit our less actives as we label them so we do get a good picture of the general situation.) Of the people who I personally know went to other churches:

    1 went JW

    1 went back to Catholicism

    0 aethist

    0 Born Again

  • bebu
    bebu
  • JS translated many things without an original - the Urim and Thummim regularly translated from corrupt nth generation copies back to original meaning - the Pearl Of Great Price contains the JS translation of the bible - he wasn't working from originals. There is a whole section in the DC that contains a letter written by Paul ( I think ) which doesn't even have a source.
  • Daniel in the bible got a whole set of words and sentences out of one word written by God on the wall. The papyrus doesn't contain enough words for the Book of Abraham - either JS was yanking our chain or he was following the prophetic model.
  • If anyone reads the history of JS they will find someone who is uneducated but almost incredibally talented - to make up the Book of Abraham would have been abject folly - no-one joined the church because of it, it was not used as a book to preach the gospel (the BOM and Bible were used for that) it has little or no purpose for a fraudster, in fact it was only published in magazine format as an interesting point and was only later added into the canon once its doctrinal importance was found.
  • As for #1... how is there any way to verify these claims? The claims that something was corrupted, or that he was translating from the originals, how can these things be proven? It opens the door for someone to write any letter and claim it was a lost original...

    #2... The interpretation, mene, mene, tekel, parsin... (count, count, weigh, divide) with the understanding of why these words applied to the king is something we can 'get'. The prophecy of the kingdom being divided was fulfilled, and proved Daniel's ability as a translator. JS has not seen vindication as a translator yet. The prophetic model seems to require vindication at some point!

    #3 We can only speculate JS's motives; perhaps it had less impact than they imagined it would. It may not have seen so absurd to them at the time. If JS were a fraud, the BOA could serve purpose to bolster faith in him among his own community (at least, until a refutation came), for he was confident and charismatic. And it seems to have done that.

    I must say, though, that if the BOA is authentic, why is this not given to international scrutiny so that all may appreciate this historic writing? Really! It cannot, actually, hold up from the very first; to at least be understood by the researchers as something other than an Egyptian funeral document. There is no legitimate way to verify the LDS claims that it was originally from Abraham. It all rests upon a priori faith in JS.

    Your argument seems to go: because JS has faithfully translated other documents (whose translations also cannot be verified!), we must accept by faith that the BOA was also faithfully translated(?). From my point of view, it must go this way: because we can verify how the one document should have been translated--and wasn't--we have serious cause to doubt JS's truthfulness as being a true translator.

    bebu

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Hi Dave (?),

    The following was an interesting comment:

    He made the whole lot up (inc. BOM) and was martyred pointlessly.

    I used to use similar constructs when I was a JW Elder. The chicken-egg argument goes, he was martyred, and no-one goes to their death for a "pointless" reason, hence this is not an option, hence he was definitely martyred, hence he can't have made it all up, hence it was true, which makes him a martyr, hence he can't have made it all up, hence...

    Supposing we re-phrase the option as:

    He made the whole lot up (inc. BOM) and was lynched for being a charlatan

    Does that make it any easier to consider?
    If not, how about applying it to another faith-group:

    Pastor Russell made the whole lot up (inc. Watchtower) and was assasinated on a train for being a charlatan

    Does that seem any more plausible?

    Taking the bagging of your upbringing into the investigation hardly makes for objectivity.
    I should know - I did so for over three decades, concerning the JWs.

    The reason that the BOA is an interesting starting point is that it gives us an insight into the intelligence and methods of the man. It casts further light on the possible origins of the BOM, and so cannot be disregarded as lightly as you suggest.

    End of the day, I believe JS is/was a prophet - end of the day I don't believe because of proofs - same way I don't believe the bible because they dig up an ancient city etc..Book of Abraham would be way down my list of things to disprove JS if that was my thinking.

    So since it's not because of proofs (not even subjective ones? ) maybe you could take the opportunity to present to us why you DO believe he was a prophet?

    LT, of the "Just in checking my PMs" class.

  • RevMalk
    RevMalk

    Not that my opinion means much but I get tired of hearing that the LDS church is as F'd up as the JWs.

    They are worlds apart.

    At least from what I've seen. (and yes, I attended the Mormon Church for quite some time).

    Rev

  • Qcmbr
    Qcmbr

    Ahh this is what you were refering to Little Toe - sorry my fault I read earlier and thought I'd answered your earlier point. Duh I am a dope!!

    I won't quibble about words - I'll use yours its the same option - lynched for being a charlatan is definately an option on Joseph Smith.

    Just a warning for anyone who doesn't want to read any further - this is my conversion to LDS story - I know this board isn't for this sort of thing so please excuse me as I'm answering LT. I won't be offended if you don't read on (in fact I'll never know hehe) and please don't think for a minute that I'm trying to convert anyone. I don't come here to do that.

    OK I can promise you now I won't be able to answer how 'I know' but what the heck I'll give it a go.

    Just to set the general scenario - there have been several threads on how does one know what is true / is there such a thing as truth (troof!) etc.. It is one of the basic human conditions - how can we tell and how can we trust our very imperfect senses / brain for anything definitive? The question(s) here was for me:

    1/ Does God exist?
    2/ Does Jesus exist? If so is He the same as God / Just a man / a myth / A seperate being to God?
    3/ Is the Bible telling a true story (despite its obvious errors)?
    4/ Is there a reason for life - where am I going?
    5/ Who am I and what is my relation to the answer to 1/.
    5/ If the above are true then how do I know it?
    6/ Did Joseph Smith answer the above questions via a visitation from God and Jesus?
    7/ Is Joseph Smith therefore a prophet?

    Weighty questions for anyone (well the first 5 are :) and far greater minds than mine have pondered them at length. At 15 I was beginning preparations for a mission and I had to find out for myself because I didn't want to teach 'rubbish' and I didn't want to live 'rubbish' - as I was brought up Mormon it was easy to believe my church's views (anyone born a JW will know what I mean)but my 'testimony' that I had as a 14 year old wasn't good enough for the 15 year old I had become. So this is what happened.

    First of all I read the bible twice, cover to cover (Holds hands up - yes I am/was a geek!)
    I read the Book of Mormon several times and compared scriptures between the two.
    I read the other 'scriptures' accepted by the LDS church.
    I sat and thought about these things , I weighed up in all my experiences what seemed right (i.e. The idea of God does feel right to me, I do feel that I'm more than just electrical impulses and meat.)
    I then got on my knees and prayed (ie I've though through/ studied this is what seems right - is it? - and while were on the topic - do you exist?) and waited for an 'answer'(in LDS thinking there is a 'burning in the bosom' that is often described.)

    I got zilch.

    I was seriously surprised and disheartened by that. My whole world shifted - a kind of mental earthquake - because I really expected an answer. For the first time ever I could contemplate that it could all be baloney.
    Not willing to give up yet the next night I got down on my knees again and I prayed again - I was fairly desperate this time so I prayed really hard!!

    Zilch. No burning feelings, no visions, no angelic chat, no signs - just this sick feeling in my stomach as I contemplated the unthinkable - no God(at least a Christian one) , no LDS life , no answers that I had taken for granted all my life. I was cr*pping myself.

    Third night - I had chewed over my options - what would Mum say!, how silly would I look after having spouted so much stuff at school confident that I'd been right.. all the funny things you go through as you play through all the new options that are presented to you. I actually decided that this was it, if I didn't get an answer I was going to leave - disconnect the umbilical cord and walk. When I prayed I talked it all over with God (a very one way conversation!) and basically ended up saying , 'Well I guess you mustn't exist if you don't answer because if you did exist it would be unfair not to answer.'

    I got my answer.

    Now this is where I lose everyone because only I know what I felt,what happened, what changed inside me. I know that some of you will say its all psychological , self induced hynosis etc etc but frankly I don't care. I was there. I felt something very personal, yet external and special. If forced for words I guess I felt eternity and absolute love (see I said I couldn't explain it) and I also got some very specific answers to my questions. Suffice to say I went on to serve a mission and to experience similar answers / prompts / feelings many times since. Like I've said in other posts - can't explain it , it doesn't make sense but I just cannot deny it. Even when I wobbled and had doubts as I got older (not so much about God but about specific doctrinal stuff) I received for me, undeniably answers - many of those answers are why I'm LDS and not any other religion.

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Q:
    Thankyou. One good reply deserves another:

    As one of my earlier experiences I got a "response" out of the blue, complete with head to toe "flooding with peace" and "burning heart". My doctrines unravelled, and I soon found my way departing the JWs and hitting the Christian camp.

    I studied with several LDS missionaries and the "burning heart" led me to things like the Book of Abraham inadequacies, etc.

    I would say that I have no right to deny that Joe Smith had an experience, however I would question his interpretation of subsequent events and some of the doctrines upon which the LDS movement have subsequently been founded.

    I continue to enjoy the "Mystical" life, and a living relationship with Jesus.

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