by No Apologies 20 Replies latest jw friends
Euphemism is absolutely correct! That is exactly how it was done in our congregation here in Fla. My Dad was also an elder before he died, and I can remember him mouning and growning about the whole mess, but he signed the papers because he was to afraid (not) to! If one elder did not go along with the rest of the elders, there was always that constant fear that he could be removed for causing divisions.
Thanks!
WALL STREET OWNS EM!
Marvin,
Thanks for the information you provided. Interesting that it took them until 2000 to make this a policy. And again, it doesn't look like th e Society would get the deed to the Hall until the local corporation was insolvent.
IP_SEC I'm not sure I follow your math. Why would the congregation give the money from the sale of the old hall, or the money they raise, to the Society? To use your example:
Cost to build new hall : $180,000 ( You didn't include this amount in your example, its hard to do any calculating without it.)
Old hall sale $50,000.00
Collections $10,000.00
Loan $120,000.00 7 years at 2%
Total interest $8695.00
So the Society has made $8965, yes, but 2% return, while relatively risk-free in this case, is not exactly a lucrative income. Do they even charge 2%? I'm sure there are better investments out there.
No Apologies( of the nickel-and-dime-them class)
Interesting info about the assembly halls, Euphemism.
I will say that legally the elders (3) that make up the corporation have to approve any financial decisions. Of course, the WTS can "encourage" them. These directives that Marvin spelled out are basically the law under the incoporation of non-profit organizations. The local entity has ownership until the local entity is dissolved, then the assets revert to the national entity.
But the WTS cannot come in and sell the KH out from under the KH corporation without their cooperation legally. I know of several congregations that hold property that could be sold. The WTS (through the CO) "suggested" they do such and donate the money to the WTS in one case and to another congregation to build their KH. The congregation corporation elders refused. So far the elders in question are still elders.
So I guess it depends on whether the elders have "balls" or not.
Blondie
This has been discussed in various posts but I think it was Blondie that made me actually think about this whilst I never did during my time in the Borg. It goes to show the whole thing is a big swindle which benefits those at the very top of the WTS.
Rotten to the core.
First of all, it surely depends on the local law, and so it differs from one country to another. (In the thread quoted in the first post I refered to the situation in my country).
Secondly, no individual witness has any say on those matters regardless of how much time and money he/she donated to the construction. When you leave you can't say "give me my shares back".
So effectively it is the borg which controls the property. And my expectation is they may try to get even more control for fear of whole-congregation apostasy.
Pole
So effectively it is the borg which controls the property. And my expectation is they may try to get even more control for fear of whole-congregation apostasy.
Pole - I think that is a good point. Although the assetts remain in control of the locals - it is always the international organization that will ultimately 'profit', and whole congregation apostasy is a real threat.
Wouldn't it be nice if it was a HUGE threat - now that would be interesting.
Jeff
I understand that in Australia, there exist in each state a trust of JW's that holds ownership of all the Kingdom Halls. The titles or deeds are all sent to the Bethel's Legal Department in Sydney and kept on their file.
If the local congregation wants to sell the KH and then upgrade their hall, they need the permision from Bethel, then The RBC, and obviously the trust need to sign off on the deal too.
Now though with greater financial powers going to the RBC, if they were to sell the old hall at a profit, they might be "encouraged" [forced] to donate that profit to another project instead of being able to sit back with some cash in the bank for a rainy day.
So really, the locals build and pay for the KH. They willingly/begrudgingly hand the Hall over to the trust, who sned the deed home to where it belongs!!
Note though that due to their Goods and Services Taxation system the loans are "interst free" and why shouldn't they be, it is all donated money and lets face it, the WTS get a free KH.
It is a wonder they dont borrow money against the equity in all that property and do some very heavy duty investing....say cigarettes, alcohol, armaments... ;-)
Not quite, geevee.
As far as i personally have knowledge, the Australia branch set up a new corporation some years ago named "Jehovahs Witnesses Incorporated" which was to acquire the deeds of all KH and Assembly Halls in Australia. The old trusts arrangements were supereceded by this new corporation and the responsible brothers "invited' to transfer the assets to JWI.
There are (were) 5 directors, three from Bethel and two connected to Bethel.
I prefer not to name them here.
as you infer, the branch has control of all property in Australia.
Cheers, ozzie
