Does the WTS's past matter?

by M.J. 58 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

candidlynuts

i was always hesitant to read about very old stuff.. the use of the cross , the jw's used to celebrate xmas.. etc.. i knew of that from childhood on.. it wasnt till stuff started changing IN MY LIFETIME that i took notice and began to realize that the old changes affected people, the new c hanges affect people and the wtbs is accountable for making those changes .
if my grandparents, great grandparents etc were alive and believed what they were told was the " truth" while they were jw's they'd be df'd for apostacy now. THATS not right i dont care WHAT religion you are.
myelaine

Jehovah?s Witnesses believe that there is a universal court case going on to settle the issue of God?s right to rule the earth. The issue is one of universal sovereignty. They claim to be God?s witnesses in the court case, appointed by him, to put forward his side of the debate.
If this were a case held even in an imperfect human court, how many times could such witnesses make false statements and claims before their honesty was called into question
not only this but once found to be a false "witness" they wouldn't be allowed to be in a JURY PANEL, deciding who's right or wrong either.
michelle
adelmaal

JWs have acknowledged these mistakes.

Read "Crises of Conscience" and you will see they have not acknowledged allot of the big mistakes they have made.
They have profoundly affected millions of lives with. I'm not talking about date prophesies that didn't come true here, I am talking about stances they have taken regarding blood, neutrality, sex, etc. They have changed their opinion on these issues and have not apologized to the people whose lives they wrecked as a result of previous stances. They have not printed apologies or admissions of being wrong. They merely state the new position without even acknowledging a change has been made. Like people are not going to figure it out. They have even held double standards on such major issues as not accepting alternate work for military service, not purchasing political cards and yet being able to bribe the military officials for cards, which then enlisted you into the reserves. Just depends on the day, the opinion and the location of the world you happened to live in as to whether or not you and your family would be raped, murdered or removed from your homes for taking such stances, which were later changed and found not to be based on solid Bible evidence but on human opinion.
It all boiled down to pride, money and appearances. In the meantime, marriages were breaking up, women and children were being raped, children were dying, etc.
Jim_TX

"She has a hard time with examples that are 100 years old or even 15-20 years old in regards to past predictions and beliefs. She has accepted the fact that like any human or human organization, mistakes are made and that JWs have acknowledged these mistakes. In essense, what we tell her about what they did 10-15 years ago has little basis on what she believes to be a changed/corrected/evolved organization."
Based upon this 'logic', any religion should be looked at - only in the past few years - and not their history.
Catholic Church...
Mormons...
etc.
So - if I wanted to investigate a 'new' religion (fat chance) - I shouldn't look at their history past a few years at the most. Forget that the Catholics did atrocious things through history - all in the name of religion...
Forget that the Mormons... well... let's face it... they're neck-n-neck with the JWs for 'unique' beliefs...
I think that if you present it as a 'look at other religions' type of situation... then maybe it may make more sense... naaaaaah... you can never get around the 'circular logic' of a JW.
Regards,
Jim TX
mustang
"In essense, what we tell her about what they did 10-15 years ago has little basis on what she believes to be a changed/corrected/evolved organization."

Oh, evolved are we??
Let?s go with that:
So WTS started w/
We?re right & you?re wrong (if you don?t totally agree w/ them).
& "you?re going to die" if you don?t change your ways.
Fine!!!
Now EVOLVE in any fashion away from that and I don?t have to worry about #?s 1 & 2.
If you EVOLVE as often as WTS does (almost as often as most people change their socks),
then you have a "crying wolf" scenario. And when an entity "cries wolf" too often (twice or less is all the slack most people will allow), you don?t have to take them seriously.
I?m tired of excusing those smug, egotistical, conceited, bigheaded, superior, proud, overconfident, supercilious, self-important, condescending, vain, high and mighty, stuck-up, snobbish, self-aggrandizing, self-centered, pompous, pretentious, immodest, self-important, swollen with pride, full of yourself, brash, patronizing, scornful, self-opinionated, overbearing, disdainful, lofty, arrogant, haughty, self-righteous, holier-than-thou, snooty, look down their nose @ you, hypocritical, sanctimonious, intellectually dishonest, deceitful creatures with that lame: "we?re just human and make mistakes".
In their total lack of modesty and humility, they raised themselves up as judge/jury/executioner of all. In so doing, they left that "we?re human" card behind.
If you make mistakes, especially that many (120 years+ & counting), then it is best to just shut up
Mustang
garybuss

Does the WTS's past matter? Not to me, not really. What matters to me is, how do people treat me and how do they treat people important to me?

I actually only ever had contact with the Watch Tower Society by way of circuit servants and one visit to preview the New York assets of the Corporation in 1958 when I was 14. Almost all of my contact with the Witness people has been on a family and local level. That contact has been somewhat less than satisfactory I am sorry to report.

Let's say there is lots of room in the Witness movement for improvement.
eye 23

This is an interesting thread and I have been thinking alot today about how I would reason this out with someone.
this is what I would say/do
I remember learning about hell when I was studying and that it had 'never came up in Jehovahs heart' that really had an impact on me because it instinctivly reminded me of gods love. I think that I would read that scripture and then say 'no doubt', 'your study has told you stories of other witnesses of jehovah that were once catholic(or whatever) and had a great fear of hell, years of anguish and pain was caused by those religious leaders they trusted who mislead them and falsely told them something untrue about gods personality.
Similarly, those faithful servents of jehovah,put their trust in the govening body to give them accurate knowledge...(quote any of the many stories you can find, that you feel will be relavent to her on a personal level.) and then say 'you know this too, was something that never ever came up in gods heart' the pain caused for these ones would have been so intense ...can you imagine...burying your child ,mother/father /brother /sister and then finding out ...............................that your loving father would never have caused you such suffering because he loves you?
how would you feel? sad? lonely? lost and unsure? (guilty, that you maybe encouraged someone precious to you to believe in something that was not true and as a consequence they lost thieir life and you lost the chance to have them in yours)? wouldn't it bring up all of the past hurt,loneliness and maybe even anger? (which is normal in bereavement) all for something that your loveing father would never ever have asked you to do? because it was something that 'had never come up in his heart'
Now if those, that were affected by these discisions were to question other important areas so as to avoid anyone else to suffer as they themselves had (maybe even for many years) and were told......they should have faith because the govening body have 'jehovahs holy spirit'...it would be logical and human wouldn't it, to use our god given reasoning to conclude that the govening body did not recieve 'holy spirit' from god on the ocasion that brought that faithful brother/sister such sorrow?..........but if that person asks for reasurance and continues to.......'make sure of all things' as god instructs his people to do........he is classed as an apostate and shunned by all those that he loves and has in his life......... can you see that this shows some measure of arrogance on the part of the organization? this same arrogance is maybe what made them conclude they had gods blessing in the first place and caused so much pain............do you think your loving father would use an organization..like this? you know this reminds me of what jesus said when warned his followers 'many will come and say I am the way/truth and mislead many'
Do you think it would be easy to 'mislead' some one? well when you think that we are made in our fathers image...in the sense ..... we can reason unlike the animal kingdom...then in order to mislead someone somethings may at first seem logical/sensible and thus true...jesus must have known this though because he gave us another sign that would show us who to trust.....he said ......'you will know my followers by the LOVE they have among themselves' what kind of love would this be? would it be greeting each other with a kiss or a hug? or would it be the deep compassionate caring kind of love that jesus showed?
do you think the organization showed this kind of love /compassion/ thoughtfulness to their brothers who were heavy in heart? if the answer is no then we need to be sure to heed Jesus warning .....'and from these turn away' some have found that continuing down the road with unloving companions have rendered themselves unkind in their actions towards others.
remember LOVE is the greatest comandment of all and thus shows gods aproval.
a bit long winded and in the JW style ...but hey you have to fight like with like eh
eye 23
mtbatoon

I base my own reasoning on these points.
When is a change of doctrine progressive and when is it to cover up holes.
Take the joining of political organisations. If the org decided that in the light of growing globalisation, membership of the UN as a platform to further its message was the right path to take then in all honesty I would put that down to a progressive change. If on the other hand they had already proclaimed the UN as the scarlet beast proclaimed in Revelations, then the justification of only being a bit in stinks of a cover up to me.
I realise that this is not old news or strictly a change in doctrine but I apply the same principles.
Would a god create an imperfect organisation if the purpose of that organisation was to be his earthly representation.
I think not.
outoftheorg

If we want to know how a person will behave or react in the future, check their past.
If we want to know how a corporation will act in the future, check out the actions in the past of its CEO and of the major shareholders.
If we want to know how a country will react in the future, check out the actions of its current regimes past behaviour.
The past is a good source of what the future may be.
Perfect? no.
Outoftheorg
truth_about_the_truth

Who controls the past, controls the future. Who controls the present, controls the past. ---- 1984 by George Orwell

Does the WTS's past matter?

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