by doogie 40 Replies latest watchtower bible
You would think that in the year 2005, and with the advent of Quantum Physics and such, we would open our minds to much grander and extensive interpretations of our Source. It's as if we have come to define ourselves with our cherished little deities on a cellular level, and just can't shake it.
i agree. in the end, our new interpretations may be just as incorrect, but its still interesting that as a culture we still cling to the Man-God option rather than modifying or reinventing it.
But then I thought, how is this information reconciled by apologists? what explanation is given for these similarities? The only reasoning I can find is, "These man-gods were myth whereas Jesus was real
accept that Jesus may not have been real at all, just another version of these same stories
www.jesusneverexisted.com gives a lot of related materials to show why Jesus was no more real then the others
but there is on theory which is made to support Jesus, namely that Joseph, prophet of Egypt, Son of Jacob started a secret cult which has given these god man myths to the world via the mysteries, renamed the mysteries of Osiris in Egypt, taken to Greece by Pythagoras who renamed them to the Ellysian mysteries, etc.
Personally, I beileve the god man myths began in relationship to astrological and agricultural cycles... the 12 apostles of the Zodiac, the four corners of the heavens, Leo the lion, Taurus the bull, Aquarius the man bearing water and Scorpio, which may have been an eagle oringally are found in both Ezekiel and Revelations.
the journey of the sun... born or mother earth in the east, rising to judge the world with light, dying in the west
Shattering the Christ-Myth The Reliability of the Secular References to Jesus http://www.tektonics.org/jesusexist/jesusexisthub.html
Confronting the Copycat Thesis
http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/copycathub.html
NEW- rebuttal responses to POCM site (also uses humour)http://www.tektonics.org/pocemon/pikachumyth.htm http://www.tektonics.org/pocemon/pagan_christs_dionysus.html
One fallacy that many JWs fall into is that a strong similarity equals a connection. This is not always the case.
Things like: being born of a virgin, espousing the redeeming power of baptism, turning water into wine at a wedding, having an entourage of 12 close followers, those 12 sharing a final meal with the god, instructing his followers to eat of his body and blood to benefit from his sacrifice (the blood usually symbolized by juice or wine), sacrificing his life by crucifixion on behalf of mankind, being dead for 3 days and then resurrected, he will return at some point to cleanse the world, and much more.
Now most of the facts of the god-man myths are changed to look more like Christianity by pseudo-historians trying to discredit Christianity. It's like those two historians, Antoine-Jean Letronne and Washington Irving, in the 19th century that got together and decided to show how stupid Christians were by "proving" with historical "facts" that they believed that the earth was flat. Unfortunately, many of these facts were false and any academic historian worth his salt wouldn't say that this was the case. Many people today even believe that during early and medieval Christian period that Christians believed that the world was flat. Yet no one believed in a flat earth since 3 BC, as the concept of a spherical world was accepted by Greek and Roman philosophers (even back in 6 BC, many, like Pythagoras, believe in a spherical world).
hooberus-
thanks for the links. i'll have to look at them more in depth later, but so far i found these quotes interesting:
In spite of the fact that relevant scholarly consenus is unanimous that the "Jesus-myth" is incorrect, it continues to be promulgated on a popular level as though it were absolutely proven.
clearly, it's not. that's what makes this stuff difficult.
Greco-Roman historian Michael Grant, who certainly has no theological axe to grind, indicates that there is more evidence for the existence of Jesus than there is for a large number of famous pagan personages - yet no one would dare to argue their non-existence. Meier [Meie.MarJ, 23] notes that what we know about Alexander the Great could fit on only a few sheets of paper; yet no one doubts that Alexander existed.
i admittedly know very little about Alexander the Great. i guess i'll have to reassess my belief in him as a historical reality as well.
"I don't think the arguments in (Wells') book deserve detailed refutation."
"...he argues mainly from silence."
"...many (of his arguments) are incorrect, far too many to discuss in this space."
these are my favorite arguments.
this is why i started this thread. i'm having the most difficult time finding explanations for WHY the details found in the gospels appear to owe much to pagan traditions. at best, i'm finding paper after paper that discredits the opposition rather than the answering the issues.
this is why i started this thread. i'm having the most difficult time finding explanations for WHY the details found in the gospels appear to owe much to pagan traditions. at best, i'm finding paper after paper that discredits the opposition rather than the answering the issues.
Many of the specific "pagan traditions" are either non-existent, not very parallel at all, or post-date Christianity (ie: though the pagan entity may pre-date Christs earthly birth, the specific parallel alledged is from post-Christian sources).
Here is a link to a thread that I started call "The Crucifixion in History."
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/63458/1.ashx
In it I posted some specific evidence for the historicity of one componet of Jesus' life (the crucifixion under Pilate) as well as responded to the specific claims of so called "pre-christian crucified pagan godmen".
the interesting thing on the links provided in support for Jesus being real, like just about every other denial of the Jesus myth
theory, approaches it from a Jesus is real as fact stance and you have to prove all of us wrong, which is a logical fallacy
if there is evidence that Jesus is more than a re-worked myth, simply present it and shut our mouths...
the arguements from scholarly authority and acceptance over time are Belief System stuff [BS]...they hold no weight in reality where evidence rules.
just because a story has been accepted as reality for millenia does not mean a thing as to the reality of that story, just the reality that people accepted it for a long time, nothing more.
the facts are hard to come by...but just about everything sited by the defenders of Jesus boils down to nothing but hearsay
hooberus-
thanks for the link. i think you make your argument very clearly (as you stated so succinctly in your last post).
this stuff is muddled at best and i suppose it will always be debated, but i think it's relatively clear that the symbolism of the cross (in it's many forms) has always had a place in religion. it's also clear that religious systems DO borrow concepts from one another (it's not always clear where the concepts originated but they do share).
i feel like i'm suddenly discussing evolution...
in the end, i think its interesting that (as Leo mentioned) the early church fathers acknowledged that many of these concepts pre-dated christianity.
Is is also valuable to recognize obfuscation when you read it. I tired of the endless grasping for Pagan precedents for every detail in the Jesus legends and I despise the dishonest strawman arguments in defence of Bible literalism. Noone in the Jesus Myth camp denies that Romans used crucifixion. Nor do they deny that someone wh inspired some of the legend may have been so crucified for sedition. The exercise is to explain how such an event could result in deification. The hellenized world was filled with expection of a son of the gods delivering the world to a golden age. Remeber this thread?:Virgil prophet of Jesus
It adds the critical piece of the puzzle. The mythic reinterpretation of a tragedy (execution of Zealot seditionist)or Jewish metaphor (Wisdom/Son literature) could very easily explain Christian origins.
Could I get some book recommendations from some of you guys about this subject please?
