The Crucifixion in History

by hooberus 43 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    Encyclopedia Brittanica Micropaedia Vol. 3 p.762

    "There were various methods of performing the execution. Usually, the condemned man, after being whipped, or "scourged," dragged the crossbeam of his cross to the place of punishment, where the upright shaft was already fixed in the ground. Stripped of his clothing either then or earlier at his scourging, he was bound fast with outstrectched arms to the crossbeam or nailed firmly to it through the wrists. The crossbeam was then raised high against the upright shaft and made fast to it about 9 to 12 feet (approximately 3 metres) from the ground. Next, the feet were tightly bound or nailed to the upright shaft. A ledge inserted about halfway up the upright shaft gave some support to the body; evidence for a similar ledge for the feet is rare and late. Over the criminal's head was placed a notice stating his name and his crime. Death, apparently caused bu exhaustion or by heart failure, could be hastened by shattering the legs (crurifragium) with an iron club, so that shock and asphyxiation soon nded his life."

    The same arcticle later says:

    "in about AD 32 Pontius Pilate had Jesus of Nazareth put to death by crucifixion."

    • The church historian Luke believed that Jesus Christ was a historical person crucified under Pilate himself a historical person.

    "Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias the tetrarch of Abilene," Luke 3:1

    "Pilate therefore, willing to release Jesus, spake again to them. But they cried, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. And he said unto them the third time, Why, what evil hath he done? I have found no cause of death in him: I will therefore chastise him, and let him go. And they were instant with loud voices, requiring that he might be crucified. And the voices of them and of the chief priests prevailed. And Pilate gave sentence that it should be as they required." Luke 23"20-24

    • Jewish historian Josephus recorded that Jesus Christ was a historical person crucified under Pilate himself a historical person (some dispute this reference, though the below part is commonly accepted).

    "and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him;"

    • Roman Historian Tacitus (Ad 115 Annals 15.44. ) believed that Jesus Christ was a historical Person crucified under Pilate himself a historical person.

    "But not all the relief that could come from man, not all the bounties that the prince could bestow, nor all the atonements which could be presented to the gods, availed to relieve Nero from the infamy of being believed to have ordered the conflagration, the fire of Rome. Hence to suppress the rumor, he falsely charged with the guilt, and punished Christians, who were hated for their enormities. Christus, the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius: but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originated, but through the city of Rome also, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their center and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind."

    • Justin Martyr (147 A.D.) appealed to a document apparenty extant in his day called the "Acts of Pontius Pilate" as a historical reference for the fact of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ by Pontius Pilate. Such a document would have been written near the time of the event.

    The First Apology of Justin

    Chapter XXXV.-Other Fulfilled Prophecies.

    And the expression, "They pierced my hands and my feet," was used in reference to the nails of the cross which were fixed in His hands and feet. And after He was crucified they cast lots upon His vesture, and they that crucified Him parted it among them. And that these things did happen, you can ascertain from the Acts of Pontius Pilate. 71

    71 aktwn . These Acts of Pontius Pilate, or regular accounts of his procedure sent by Pilate to the Emporer Tiberius, are supposed to have been destroyed at an early period, possibly in consequence of the unanswerable appeals which the Christians constantly made to them. There exists a forgery in imitation of these Acts. See Trollope.

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    What about so-called "crucified pagan godmen" which supposedly were "crucified" before Jesus Christ?

    Justin Martyr writing in 147 AD was not aware of any pre-christian crucifed pagan god-men.

    "But in no instance, not even in any of those called sons of Jupiter, did they imitate the being crucified; for it was not understood by them, all the things said of it having been put symbolically. And this, as the prophet foretold, is the greatest symbol of His power and role; as is also proved by the things which fall under our observation." The First Apology of Justin Chapter LV.- Symbols of the Cross http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-46.htm#P3593_620967

    Dionysus

    Dionysus/Bacchus was torn apart by titans, boiled, and eaten. Justin Martyr was apparently aware of this account: "Bacchus too, after he had been torn limb from limb" The First Apologoy of Justin chapter Chapter XXI.-Analogies to the History of Christ However, he was not aware of a Dionysus "crucifxion" account: "But in no instance, not even in any of those called sons of Jupiter, did they imitate the being crucified; . . . " The First Apology of Justin Chapter LV.-Symbols of the Cross

    The below picture of Dionysus on a cross like object is commonly used to imply that Christianity may have borrowed from Dionysus for the crucifixion. However this item is dated several hundred years after the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. (Some "pagan origin" sources point this out, some however do not.)

    "Now let us add in those unique items posited by Freke and Gandy. We should first note the most obvious, for it graces the cover of their work: Based on "a small picture tucked away in the appendices of an old academic book" (though what the cite is for this book, we are not told), they feature a drawing of "a third-century CE amulet" with a depiction of a crucified figure which names "Orpheus Bacchus" as the figure, another name for D. According to Freke and Gandy, this shows that "To the initiated, these were both names for essentially the same figure." [12-13] To which we reply: That's the initiated's problem. The uncritical syncretism of a single person (the maker/wearer of the amulet) provides no evidence for the copycat thesis; least of all when the evidence dates several hundred years after the time of Christ (as does indeed all their evidence of D being crucified [52]). They also state incorrectly that there are no representations of the crucified Jesus before the fifth century; as Raymond Brown noted in Death of the Messiah, there are about a half-dozen depictions of the crucified Jesus dated between the second and fifth century, and even if this were not so, the literary depiction in the Gospels amounts to the same thing. Freke and Gandy chose rather a poor examplar to feature on their cover." http://www.tektonics.org/tekton_04_02_04_DDD.html

    Since the original legend of Dionysus has him being torn apart by titans, and since the "crucifixion" evidence is post-christian, I think that is was the followers of Dionysus that did the "borrowing" and not the other way around.

    Krishna

    Krishna was mistaken for a deer and was shot in the foot by a hunters arrow. Was Krishna crucified? Even the atheistic infidels site has this to say about Krishna being a pre-Christain crucified deity.

    In fairness, however, one purported similarity needs to be discredited. Skeptics sometimes cite Kersey Graves in Sixteen Crucified Saviors or Godfrey Higgin's Anacalypsis (which Graves drew from) in asserting that Krishna was a crucified deity. No such event occurred in the Gita or in any recognized Hindu scripture. Given the pronounced syncretic tendency of Hinduism, it is safe to assume that any odd tales of Krishna's being crucified arose only after the existence of Christian proselytism, in imitation of the Christian narrative. It is neither authentic to Hinduism nor is Hinduism the source of that portion of the Christian narrative. The same may be said for most of the purported nativity stories. In my opinion, both Higgins and Graves are highly unreliable sources and should be ignored. http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/1994/3/3hare94.html

    The following discusses the "crucifixion of Krishna" claims of Acharya S (Murdock):

    What about Ms. Murdock?s claim that Krishna is so similar to Jesus that Christianity must have borrowed from Hinduism? Dr. Edwin Bryant, Professor of Hinduism at Rutgers University is a scholar on Hinduism. As of the writing of this paper, he has just translated the Bhagavata-Purana (life of Krishna) for Peguine World Classics and is currently writing a book to be titled, In Quest of Historical Krishna.

    When I informed him that Ms. Murdock wrote an article claiming that Krishna had been crucified, he replied, "That is absolute and complete non-sense. There is absolutely no mention anywhere which alludes to a crucifixion."(22) He also added that Krishna was killed by an arrow from a hunter who accidentally shot him in the heal. He died and ascended. It was not a resurrection. The sages who came there for him could not really see it.(23)

    Then I read a statement by Ms. Murdock from her article "Krishna, Crucified?" an excerpt from her forthcoming book, Suns of God: Krishna, Buddha and Christ Unveiled.(24) In it she states, "it appears that Krishna is not the first Indian god depicted as crucified. Prior to him was another incarnation of Vishnu, the avatar named Wittoba or Vithoba, who has often been identified with Krishna." To this Bryant responded, "She doesn?t know what she?s talking about! Vithoba was a form of Krishna worshipped in the state of Maharashtra. There are absolutely no Indian gods portrayed as crucified." Then he became indignant and said, "If someone is going to go on the air and make statements about religious tradition, they should at least read a religion 101 course."(25) http://www.risenjesus.com/articles/index.asp?pagea=acharya-s&pagea2=website

    Prometheus

    There are apparently two main legends for the story of Prometheus. In one by Aeschylus he was was chained to a crag high on a cliff, in the other he is bound to a pillar.

    Prometheus bound to a rock cliff

    Prometheus Bound by Aeschylus

    HEPHAESTUS

    Here are the iron bracelets for his arms.

    KRATOS

    Fasten them round his arms with all thy strength!
    Strike with thy hammer! Nail him to the rocks!

    HEPHAESTUS

    'Tis done! and would that it were done less well!

    (continued) at http://classics.mit.edu/Aeschylus/prometheus.html

    One myth site makes the following claim: "Yet even in the extant translations of Prometheus Bound by Aeschylus, the god is plainly crucified, albeit on a rock:

    Force: Seize his hands and master him.
    Now to your hammer. Pin him to the rocks.
    Drive stoutly now your wedge straight through his breast, the stubborn jaw of steel that cannot break.
    Now for his feet. Drive the nails through the flesh."

    http://www.askwhy.co.uk/awmob/awpagan/pag240RELOtherSaviours.html

    I have not been able to find this phrase in any online version of Prometheus bound by Aeschylus. It would be interesting to know the source and date of this version.

    Promethus bound to a Pillar

    This version is from an ancient source named Hesiod. In his account prometheus is bound to a pillar.

    Prometheus bound to a tree?

    Many myth sources claim that prometheus was bound to a "tree". I have not been able to find any ancient written account of this. Though it is claimed to be found in ancient artwork, the artwork that I have looked at seems to have prometheus bound to an engraved pillar/column. The material that the pillar/column is made from is speculative. It could be stone, wood, etc.

    Many myth sites also publish a poem/hymn about Prometheus such as this:

    An anonymous poet describes a scene like it, thus:

    Lo! streaming from the fatal tree
    His all atoning blood,
    Is this the Infinite??Yes, 'tis he,
    Prometheus, and a god!

    Well might the sun in darkness hide,
    And veil his glories in,
    When God, the great Prometheus, died
    For man the creature's sin.

    http://www.askwhy.co.uk/awmob/awpagan/pag240RELOtherSaviours.html

    The original source for this hymn seems to come not from an ancient Prometheus author but from an Isaac Watts (1674-1748) Christian hymn!

    Was it for crimes that I had done He groaned upon the tree? Amazing pity! grace unknown! And love beyond degree! Well might the sun in darkness hide, And shut his glories in, When God, the mighty Maker, died For man, the creature's sin. http://www.ccel.org/w/watts/psalmshymns/II.9.htm

    Mithras

    I have not seen any pre-christian primary source documentation for any death of Mithras let alone a "crucifixion" account. Holding comments:

    Wynne-Tyson [Wyn.MFC, 24; cf. Ver.MSG, 38] also refers to a church writer of the fourth century, Firmicus, who says that the Mithraists mourn the image of a dead Mithras -- still way too late, guys! -- but after reading the work of Firmicus, I find no such reference at all!) Acharya adds the assertion of Dupuis that Mithras was killed by crucifixion, but from the description, either Dupuis or Acharya are mixing up Mithra with Attis! http://www.tektonics.org/tekton_04_02_04_MMM.html

    Attis

    Some pagan myth sources claim that Attis was crucified. Some of Holding's comments ( I have re-ordered them):

    On "Black Friday," he was crucified on a tree, from which his holy blood ran down to redeem the earth. I have found utterly no verification for any of this -- Attis died under a tree, not crucified on it; there is no reference to it happening on a Friday, much less a "Black" one; Attis did shed blood, but all it did was make flowers (especially violets), in some stories -- if you want to call that "redeeming" the earth, then maybe your local farmer is doing the same thing by rotating the crops. It sure didn't "redeem" anything or anyone with reference to sin or do those of us outside the floral business a heck of a lot of good.

    Doane is recorded as saying that Attis was represented as a "a man tied to a tree, at the foot of which was a lamb, and, without doubt also as a man nailed to a tree..."

    What about Doane's story? The closest I can find to this is a story reported by Frazer [Fraz.AAO, 288] in which a Phrygian satyr who was a good flute player vainly challenged Apollo to a fluting contest and lost -- and so was tied to a tree, then flayed from limb to limb. Frazer suggested, because the satyr was also a comforter of Cybele, that he was somehow to be equated with Attis, but this seems more like creative writing by Frazer than sense. And there is no lamb in the story at all.

    Jackson is reported as saying that on March 22nd, a pine tree was felled and "an effigy of the god was affixed to it, thus being slain and hung on a tree..." Later the priests are supposed to have found Attis' grave empty.

    Based on a calendar dated to 354 AD, there were six Roman celebrations to Attis -- dated March 15, 22, 24, 25, 26, 27, and 28. The one on the 22nd was indeed as Jackson relates -- a pine tree was felled, and the figure of Attis attached, although it represents his death under the tree -- the figure being affixed to the tree therefore being no more than a matter of practically depicting the scene, since the figurine of Attis isn't just going to float along while the tree is carried by the processioneers. The problem with all of this, though, is that the only one of the six feasts known certainly to have crossed paths with Christianity was the one on the 27th, which is the only festival attested on a calendar dated 50AD. A sixth-century writer says that the Emperor Claudius (41-54 AD) instituted the festival on the 22nd. (The 23rd was a day of mourning; on the 24th the priests of Attis would flagellate themselves.) http://www.tektonics.org/tekton_04_02_04_PPP.html


    Sixteen Crucified Saviors ?

    Even the atheistic infidels site has this to say about Graves "Sixteen Crucified Saviors" book

    All this is not to say Graves didn't have some things right. But you will never be able to tell what he has right from what he has wrong without totally redoing all his research and beyond, which makes him utterly useless to historians as a source. For example, almost all his sources on Krishna long postdate Christian-Nestorian influence on India. No pre-Christian texts on Krishna contain the details crucial to his case, apart from those few that were common among many gods everywhere. Can you tell from Graves which details are attested by early evidence, and which by late? That's a problem. http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/graves.html

    In my opinion, both Higgins and Graves are highly unreliable sources and should be ignored. http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/1994/3/3hare94.html

    UNDER CONSTRUCTION

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    I wrote a lengthy paper on this subject.....it's no longer online tho, but I could probably write up a summary for this forum. The evidence cited by the WTS against crucifixion is mostly bogus and the evidence from biblical and patristic sources for crucifixion (as opposed to "impalement on a stake") is also quite weighty. --Leolaia

  • rem
    rem

    The Encyclopedia said it so it must be true. :)

    Let's not get too excited when mentioning ancient 'historians'. They were not historians in the modern sense. Many of those 'historians' passed on obvious myths and rumours that were not true.

    Of course, there's nothing extraordinary about a man name Jesus being crucified. It's the resurrection part that's the kicker.

    rem

  • greven
    greven

    If I remember correctly did both Josephus and Tacitus record miracles of Roman Emperors. (a virgin giving birth to a real lamb?? or something like that...) This should tell you that you should take what they write with a grain of salt.

    The evidence for crucifixion in the traditional depiction (an upright stake with crossbeam) is overwhelming: inscriptions, paintings, josephus etc etc. I always wondered though why the WT would make such a fuss about it. It doesn't really matter to the gospel message how he was killed.

    Greven

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Rem:Is there anything you aren't inately skeptical of?

  • Dansk
    Dansk

    Hey Hooberus,

    Take it easy!

    16-Dec-03 00:39 Dec 16, 2003 by hooberus: Correct formatting
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    16-Dec-03 01:52 Dec 16, 2003 by hooberus: Correct formatting
    16-Dec-03 01:57 Dec 16, 2003 by hooberus: Correct formatting
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    16-Dec-03 02:31 Dec 16, 2003 by hooberus: Correct formatting
    16-Dec-03 02:57 Dec 16, 2003 by hooberus: Correct formatting
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    16-Dec-03 03:42 Dec 16, 2003 by hooberus: Correct formatting
    16-Dec-03 03:44 Dec 16, 2003 by hooberus: Correct formatting

    Best wishes and Happy Christmas,

    Ian

  • rem
    rem

    LT,

    Is there anything you are skeptical of? :D

    rem

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    hooberus.....i'm not sure what your point is - that Justin Martyr was misinformed or that Jesus wasn't crucified / didn't exist? --Leolaia

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    Leolaia, my points are 1. that Jesus was crucified, 2. that historians as well as writers such as Justin Martyr believed that He was crucified, and 3. that the claim that Christianity borrowed the crucifixion from so called "crucified pagan godmen" is false.

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