What I remember from 1975

by Big Dog 77 Replies latest jw experiences

dostprefer

good question, hang on a minute mate!
:"you must say to this people, 'Hear again and again, O men, but do not understand; and see again and again, but do not get any knowledge. Make the heart of this people unreceptive, and make their very ears unresponsive (quite denunciatory and galling unless you have the stomach to read to the end of verse 10) Isaiah 6:9-10
That answers 'why' and it did happen to some (but not to the majority who did listen.)
The postings reveal the pain and make one even more determined to eschew the obstinancy and pride which could entrap any of us. The '1975' thing is 'old hat' really. The task of 'eluding to it again and again' is now the preroccupation of those making postings on forums. . -- a strange irony.
The majority of over 6 million witnesses have 'come in' since then (and others came back - plenty of them!) And they are just glad to be able to finally repudiate the disgusting world in which they suffered so long. And the steady 'oldies' already knew there was no need to go back there.
AlanF

David2002 said, on page 1 of this thread:
: Can you cite me a WT article that clearly states that the end will come in 1975??? Not those half quotes, or misquotes which appear all over the Internet. What I want is a WT publication article that clearly states that the end WILL come in 1975. Can you help me find such an article???
On page 2 of this thread, I presented several quotations that do exactly that. Did you not read them? Unless you do, and comment substantively, your defenses of the Watchtower Society's deceptions are so much hot air. I and others lived through their deceptions. I certainly didn't come up with the expectations for 1975 on my own. The Society taught me to have such expectations.
I attended a District Convention at Aqueduct Racetrack in New York City in August, 1975, where Nathan Knorr gave the closing address (it turned out to be his last at a DC). He expressed disappointment that "the end" had not yet come, and that current events did not seem to be leading up to "the end" coming soon. But he also said that events could easily occur in extremely rapid succession between August and the end of 1975, just like happened in 1914, so the audience shouldn't be too disappointed that "the end" hadn't yet come. After all, there were still four months to go in 1975!
So once again, don't try to tell me what you think the Society didn't do. You weren't a JW then and you're relying on the faulty memories of someone who became a JW in 1974. I was there. I know!
In view of the quotations I presented on page 2 of this thread, along with the links, the quotations you presented on page 3 of this thread show nothing more than the huge capacity of the JW organization for double-speak. The Watchtower Society talks out of both sides of its mouth at the same time, on the one hand generating great expectations for 1975 and on the other hand inserting a few cautionary words from time to time -- knowing perfectly well that most JWs know how to read between the lines and get the real message, and will run with it. How cynical!
On page 3 of this thread you said:
: My understanding, is that each time they allued to 1975, they also mentioned and pointed out that it does not necessarily mean the end will come then. It only means that 6,000 years of man's existance on earth will end in 1975.
This is false. Read the material I quoted. Read the links. See for yourself how wrong your understanding is.
: Even after the Freedom Sons book came out, Franz said that no one should be saying anything about 1975.
No, he did not say that. The quotation you presented said this:
"And don?t any of you be specific in saying anything that is going to happen between now and 1975."
Note the word "specific". There's a big difference between your understanding of what Franz said, and what he actually said.
But as I already pointed out, Franz changed his mind after seeing the enthusiasm that the 1966 material generated. He caused Circuit and District Servants to orally present the material on 1975 with far more force and dogmatism than was done in print. This is typical Watchtower deception -- to present the real idea orally and a watered-down version in print. This is also known as "ass-coverning".
: And you were even allow to reject the chronology presented.
More double-talk. Anyone who dared to argue in public that "the chronology presented" was flawed would have been disfellowshipped for "apostasy" and for "speaking against Jehovah's anointed". If you don't understand that, then you have absolutely no understanding of Jehovah's Witnesses and you have no business making the comments you've been making.
In 1977, a pioneer from Sweden name Carl Olof Jonsson argued against that chronology. He presented the Watchtower Society with a large tome proving that the "chronology presented" was wrong. He was told to keep his mouth shut. When he didn't, he was disfellowshipped. So much for Franz's lies. Many, many people since then have been disfellowshipped for arguing against the "607 chronology". Do you even know what that is?
AlanF
Forscher

I find it so interesting that the Watchtower gets so quoted proving that nothing was ever said about the end coming in 1975. That overlooks the "pure language" of the WBTS, a different way of understanding language that every JW learns. What is so brilliant about the "pure language" is that it provides the WTBTS a perfectly deniable way of getting its message across to the rank and file while appearing reasonable since the rank and file read what is printed very differently from everybody else.

Those of us who were around then read that material and understood perfectly well the message at the time that the big A was coming in 1975. At the same time the WTBTS never said in plain English that it was going to come and can deny it to this day!

Of course, denial is a common form of coping with things that don't go the way we hope. So the WTBS denies. And so do many who where disappointed and felt like folls. So it is no surprise to me that many deny that 1975 was ever important to them.
AlanF

Well there, dostprefer and self-proclaimed Mr. Gadfly. You're obviously an arrogant, proud, and self-assured JW defender. You have met Mr. Praying Mantis.
You said in one post:
: re speculation about 1975 It's most interesting that you should perceive that "the wtbs didn't do a thing to put a stop to it".
: On the one hand some may feel that the organisation is 'too controlling'. On the other that it does not control enough. Which do you prefer?
A typical bit of JW-defenderish misdirection. The complaints about the Society's being too controlling are generally about controlling every aspect of people's lives where the Bible gives no warrant to do so. Examples include the downgrading or prohibiting, at one time or another, of things like wearing colored shirts; sporting sideburns, long hair, mustaches and beards; going to college; engaging in certain forms of sexual expression by married people. I need give no more examples.
On the other hand, your observation that one person complains that the Society failed to put a stop to speculation about 1975 -- as if that complaint is made by all JW critics -- is a red herring. The actual complaint made by most critics is not that the Society didn't put a stop to speculation, but that it originated and encouraged the speculation. Indeed, that it made it virtually impossible for a gung-ho, faithful JW to believe anything other than that "the end" would come by 1975. What do you think the six-month "Bible study" program initiated in 1968, based on the 1968 Truth book, was all about? Furthermore, because the Bible itself says, in effect, "don't speculate about the time of the end", a complaint that the Society failed to uphold the Bible's command is entirely warranted.
: As Jesus said about Matthew 11:16-19. About the sulking generation who kept changing their tune and then complained that the witnesses of that time would not dance to it.
A complete misapplication of Scripture. Typical of JW defenders.
: If posters to this forum insist on playing the dead march from 'Saul" they should not be surprised that ticket sales at the door are down. Better to consider the example of the sensible woman who said to her husband "waltz faster dear, they are playing a rhumba'.
You think you're clever, but your attempts at reasoning and humor show quite the opposite.
In your next post you said:
: Jimbob First of all it is that 'they all think the same' and then 'they dont all say the same'.
First of all, Jimbob said no such thing. Your claim is yet another standard JW-defender tactic of using a straw man. What Jimbob said was this:
"To anyone who thinks the WT didn't promote 1975 was either in la-la land, or was so weak in the 'troof' that they didn't pay attention. . . They can't think outside the box for one moment, cause if they did, the box would collapse in front of them!"
From these demonstrably true statements, which you misrepresented, you drew the silly conclusion that:
: This encouraging people to have a mind of their own must be why 'they' are still witnesses.
Nonsense. The reason most JWs failed to quit the cult because of the Society's false predictions about 1975 is well explained in the book When Prophecy Fails by Leon Festinger. A community of true believers makes a huge emotional investment in the community, and usually does everything possible to salvage failed -- even fundamental ones -- prophecies. It's simply more painful to quit than it is to ignore the failure and go on as if it never happened.
: Yes, in the 60's and 70's 'they' went to all those assemblies sporting sideburns, wearing flares, stilletto and cuban heels, loved the beatles, beegees and abba and now they have the effrontery to change!
Yet more straw men marching by. Sure, a small number of JWs bucked the Society on these things, but how did they fare as JWs? Not well. They certainly were given few or no "privileges" in the congregation because they bucked the Society's conservatism. And experience seems to indicate that a great many of such people eventually had the sense to get out of the cult.
: And still put on this pretence of being human? Can't something be done to make them conform?
Not without radical surgery like a lobotomy, I'm afraid.
: Heinrich Himmler had an excellent programme for them but unfortunately (for him) his time was cut short. Surely there must be some like-minded authority out there to create a programme to bring these miserable imposters into line.
You're not nearly as clever with these allusions as you think. Your lack of proper reasoning ability, and resorting to standard, well-known and thoroughly discredited JW techniques of deception prove it.
A poster had quoted:
::: But that Awake! article clearly states "Does this mean that the above evidence postively points to 1975 as the time for the complete end of this system of things? Since the Bible does not specifically state this, no man can say."
To which A Paduan had replied:
: So why write and elude to it, again and again ?
To which you replied:
: good question, hang on a minute mate!
You've obviously misunderstood A Paduan's answer. His point was that, since the Awake! article clearly admits that no man can say positively that any evidence pointed to 1975 as "the end", it was disingenuous for the Society to allude again and again to the claim that 1975 was going to be extremely signifcant in the history of mankind.
Since you're obviously a JW defender, you then quoted this scripture:
: "you must say to this people, 'Hear again and again, O men, but do not understand; and see again and again, but do not get any knowledge. Make the heart of this people unreceptive, and make their very ears unresponsive (quite denunciatory and galling unless you have the stomach to read to the end of verse 10) Isaiah 6:9-10
: That answers 'why' and it did happen to some (but not to the majority who did listen.)
A typically bad JW-ish application of Scripture. First, the fact that Isaiah applied such words to unfaithful Jews living some 2500 years ago has no connection with what happens today when destructive cults like Jehovah's Witnesses make false predictions for which a few members hold them accountable. The Scriptures provide no refuge for your cult, mate! Second, the only possible connection between the complete ignoring of Scripture that the Society engaged in pre-1975, and the scripture you quoted, is that the Society itself heard "again and again", but did "not understand". JW leaders saw "again and again, but" did "not get any knowledge." God made "the heart of this people unreceptive, and . . . their very ears unresponsive." But because you're a JW defender, this went completely over your head.
: The postings reveal the pain and make one even more determined to eschew the obstinancy and pride which could entrap any of us.
Your first good point. Unfortunately, it's obvious, from the Society's actions post-1975, and especially these past ten years, that JW leaders are still characterized by extreme obstinancy and pride. Why then, do you defend them?
: The '1975' thing is 'old hat' really.
Not at all. It's simply the latest in a long series of false predictions made by Watchtower leaders in the name of God during the last 120 or so years. Not one thing of substance they've predicted has come true. The Bible is clear about how to view men who claim to speak in God's name but make false predictions and teach false things -- they're "false prophets". No true Christian, or anyone who values truth, should listen to them. They have not changed their ways, and they certainly learned only one lesson from 1975: don't commit yourself on paper.
: The task of 'eluding to it again and again' is now the preroccupation of those making postings on forums. . -- a strange irony.
Which statement proves your complete misinterpretation of what A Paduan said.
: The majority of over 6 million witnesses have 'come in' since then
Which is why they have no knowledge of the Society's false predictions.
: (and others came back - plenty of them!)
But many more stayed away -- yours truly included.
: And they are just glad to be able to finally repudiate the disgusting world in which they suffered so long.
Which has nothing to do with the topic of this thread, but everything to do with why, as Leon Festinger showed, some people ignore false predictions made by their religious leaders.
: And the steady 'oldies' already knew there was no need to go back there.
Translation: the steady 'oldies' had the choice of leaving a cult and staying; they chose the emotionally easy course and stayed.
AlanF
outoftheorg

We didn't have many in the congregation who quickly became angry at the failed prophecy.
But there were quite a few who gradually faded from the scene and left the org.
One thing that surprised me, is the volatile anger that some elders directed at those who were disapointed and spoke of their feelings.
Funny though, one or two of those elders later were df'd for apostasy.
It did create a lot of confusion and doubt, even in those who did not leave .
The prediction of armageddon did take place.
The wbts caused it.
Anyone who says they did not, either does not know what they claim is false or they are blindly defending an organization that they deserve to be in.
Outoftheorg
Big Dog

Alanf, thanks for the great posts!!!! The folks trying to defend the Borg definitely have an uphill battle. Its just so painfully obvious what went on, I mean, are they even reading some of the quotes from the publications they are using? And it just sucks that the new recruits to the Borg have no idea about what really went on, just like when I was growing up I had no idea about 1875, 1925, and the goofball house the society had out in San Diego for Moses and Abraham. And it just makes me sick how the defenders totally marginalize the negative impact that 1975 had on so many lives.
Leolaia

These are some tape-recorded remarks made during the August 1974 "Divine Purpose District Convention" in Utrecht, Holland (cited in Singelenberg 1988:26):
"The youth has a bright future. Many of us suffered from misery, sickness and death. You don't have to experience that any more. The new order is near... There will be a very special Service Meeting in the week of 8 September 1975. Invite everybody. And what will then happen? Well, we don't tell. You think that if Jehovah makes such an appeal, that there's nothing unusual behind it? Yes? .... Well, sell your house, sell everything you own and say oh boy, how long can I carry on with my private means. That long? Get rid of things! Pioneer! Plan to shower people with magazines during these last months of this dying system of things! Everybody you meet!"
This gives a slight idea of what was said orally at the time....
observador

SNG, AlanF, Leolaia et al, made very good points.

SNG showed very clearly how something that the WT says may be viewed more than one way. They are master on this field...

On the same line of what Leolaia said, I was talking to a couple of friends the other day and said that are very mistaken those who are only looking on publications to see what the Society said. There are a lot of unwritten rules and instructions among the Witnesses.

My dad's life is screwed up to this day because of 1975... Did he come up with that on his own? I don't think so.

Observador.
AK - Jeff

AlanF-
Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!
Your detailed and clear argumentation here is the clearest signal that can be sent from this forum: That those who have left the cult of Jehovah's witnesses are leaving due to intelligent thought - not insane emotionalism that drives most of the Watchtower apologists that troll here.
Your arguments were clear and concise - If only you and the countless others here and myself could have only seen these things while we were 'in'! I, like you lived through the lie of 1975 - and believed it with all my heart - I did not invent it, fuel it, or repeatedly refer to it on my own, as you stated. It came from the center of our religious universe - Brooklyn New York and the Governing Body. They invented it, promoted it, and encouraged it! Now they conceal it, minimize it, and ignore it, hoping it will go away.
May those of us who lived through it do all we can to make sure that those who didn't, can and will know about it - unlike the generation of disappointed Bible Students that lived through the 1914 lie, we have a tool that they could not have envisioned - the internet, and other future technologies that will make this information impossible to conceal.
Jeff
AlanF

I'm glad that my comments were useful to some people.
I note that our latest JW defenders seem to be in the privy a long time.
AlanF

What I remember from 1975

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