DNA - belief destuction

by donkey 85 Replies latest jw friends

  • MungoBaobab
    MungoBaobab
    Nothing is said here or implied that snakes did not already crawl on their bellies.

    Genesis 3:14, King James Version: "The LORD God said to the serpent, 'Because you have done this, cursed are you above all cattle, and above all wild animals; upon your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life. '"

    Genesis 3:14, New World Translation: "And Jehovah God proceeded to say to the serpent: 'Because you have done this thing, you are the cursed one out of all the domestic animals and out of all the wild beasts of the field. Upon your belly you will go and dust is what you will eat all the days of your life.'"

    So, since God says to the serpent, the dumb animal supposedly misused by the devil "because you have done this," then, "upon your belly you will go," this does indeed imply the serpent itself was being punished by crawling on its belly. But why punish a dumb animal that was being unnaturally forced to speak by a vastly superior intelligence?

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Yah, and why does he make snakes eat dirt?? Wait a minute, snakes don't eat dirt like jehovah said they would. What the hemp is going on?? Snakes disobey the most high, or is it all doggie doodoo.

    S

    Ps, just had new light flash up. It's obvious to me that the bible dork saw the snake stick out its little forked tongue as it was slithering on the ground, and actually thought that it was licking up dirt. Real smart.

  • funkyderek
    funkyderek

    aChristian:

    Common sense should do.

    If only that were true.

    You wrote: God created the world in six days, and rested on the seventh. Scientists assure us that our earth and universe are both billions of years old. So, if the Bible is truthful, the "days" of Genesis must be understood as figurative.

    So what you're saying is - it's literal if it conforms to observed reality; if not, it must be figurative. I'm well aware that a literal reading is contradcted by what we actually know about the world, but if I did not know that, would I be able to determine from the text alone whether it was meant literally or figuratively?

    Besides, Gen. 2:4 speaks of "the day [singular] that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens." Obviously then, the writer of Genesis was not using the word "day" to refer to a 24 hour time period. For after telling us of everything that happened during all seven of those "days" he told us that it all happened on only one day. It is obvious then that the writer of Genesis was using the word "day" to simply refer to a long period of time. We often do the same today when we say, for instance, "In my father's day."

    But we don't usually talk about our father's morning and evening.

    Gen. 1:6-8 describes the "sky" as an expanse of space between the waters on the earth and those above the earth. That is indeed what the sky is. The waters above the earth are clouds. The waters on the earth are oceans, seas, lakes, etc. The sky exists between the two.

    It's a stretch, but it could be said to describe the world as a primitive observer would view it

    It is important here to note that it is the Hebrew verb "Asa" which Gen. 1:16 uses in reference to the sun, moon, and stars being "made" by God on the fourth "day." And Hebrew lexicons tell us that "Asa" does not connote "the absolute newness of the object" that has been made, as does the Hebrew verb "Bara" used elsewhere in Genesis chapter one. Rather, we are told that "Asa" primarily connotes "the fashioning of" preexisting materials. This being so, I believe the writer of Genesis was telling us that God caused the preexisting sun, moon and stars to first become visible from earth's surface during this fourth creative period of time. (see Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament, by Harris, Archer & Waltke, 1980, Vol.2, pg. 701)

    Another stretch, but necessary because if taken literally the account cannot be true, right?

    You wrote: No plants grew before God created Adam [contradicts chapter 1] (Gen 2:5) There is no contradiction here. Genesis chapter 1 does not tell us of God's creation of Adam. It tells us of God's creation of "man," i.e., the pre-adamic human race. Prior to God's creation of Adam the land where He would create a garden home for him was barren.

    That's a real stretch. What it looks like is a separate creation story.

    You wrote: Adam was made from dust, and God breathed life into him. (2:7) That is what the Bible tells us.

    But it also tells us the earth was formed in six days. Is it possible to tell from the text alone that only one of these is meant to be taken literally?

    You wrote: God then formed animals from dust and had Adam name them all [contradicts chapter 1] (2:19.20) Again, there is no contradiction here. Genesis chapter 1 does not tell us of God's creation of Adam. It tells us of God's creation of "man," i.e., the pre-adamic human race.

    And yet, in chapter 2, after placing Adam in the garden of Eden, God "formed out of the ground every living animal of the field and every bird of the air." Now, you claim the forming Adam out of dust was literal. Do you also believe the forming animals out of dust after this event was also literal? Were there pre-and-post Adamic animals?

    You wrote: God made Eve out of Adam's rib (2:21-23) That is what the Bible tells us.

    Effectively, then, you believe there are two distinct species of human: those who are descended from Adam and Eve and those who already existed? How do you reconcile this with the observable reality that all humans appear in every measurable way to be descended from a common ancestor?

    The Bible tells us that talking snake was actually Satan the devil. (Rev. 12:9)

    No it does not. Your interpretation of what you call the Bible tells you that. Nothing in the Genesis account or anything that was written in the following millennium suggests that. Revelation 12:9 is a very weak supporting text. While it calls Satan "the ancient serpent" nowhere does it link him with the Genesis account. Wherever you're getting that idea, it's not from the Bible.

    And the Bible does not say that eating that fruit made Eve wise. It says by her eating it, by her disobeying God, she gained a personal knowledge of both good and evil. Having a knowledge of both good and evil does not necessarily equate to being wise.

    Fair point. Nevertheless she gained the knowledge of good and evil as the snake said she would. She did not die as God had warned.

    You wrote: God cursed the talking snake to crawl on its belly (3:14) Nothing is said here or implied that snakes did not already crawl on their bellies. Snakes have always been among the least loved and "lowest" creatures on our planet. God saw to it that Satan would use a snake to talk to Adam and Eve to illustrate Satan's character. Because of the events in Eden, from that time forward snakes have been "cursed" by being closely associated with Satan the devil. The real "curse" however has been that which was then spoken against Satan by God Himself. For God then told Satan that He would one day raise up a Savior for the human race. And God told Satan that Savior "will crush your head." (Gen. 3:15)

    So those bits are figurative? So let's see what we have so far: Six days, figurative. Sun, moon and stars being made, figurative Earth and sky formed by separating two expanses of water, literal. Adam's creation from dust, literal. Adam's being placed in the garden of Eden, literal Animals then being created from dust, figurative (I'm still not quite sure on this one) Talking snake tricks them into eating fruit, literal. God curses snake to crawl and eat dust, figurative. Humans and snakes in ankle-biting head-bruising enmity, figurative. Labour-pains and back-breaking work curse, literal I assume? Eve being the mother of everyone living, figurative. Flaming sword guarding the tree of life? I have no idea. Boy, I wish i had as much common sense as you.

  • stillajwexelder
    stillajwexelder

    So those bits are figurative? So let's see what we have so far: Six days, figurative. Sun, moon and stars being made, figurative Earth and sky formed by separating two expanses of water, literal. Adam's creation from dust, literal. Adam's being placed in the garden of Eden, literal Animals then being created from dust, figurative (I'm still not quite sure on this one) Talking snake tricks them into eating fruit, literal. God curses snake to crawl and eat dust, figurative. Humans and snakes in ankle-biting head-bruising enmity, figurative. Labour-pains and back-breaking work curse, literal I assume? Eve being the mother of everyone living, figurative. Flaming sword guarding the tree of life? I have no idea. Boy, I wish i had as much common sense as you. BRILLIANT FUNKYDEREK -BRILLIANT

  • melmac
    melmac

    There's also the fact that the embryo FIRST develops as a female, and only after hormonal changes becomes a male. It God created woman from man's ribs, it should be the opposite: our embryo would first be male, then, if that was the case, become female...

  • a Christian
    a Christian

    Derek, What you have just done is illustrate a point which needed no illustration. For everyone who has ever read the Bible knows that some parts of it are meant to be taken literally and some parts of it are meant to be taken figuratively. They also know that before each verse there are no "instructions to readers" saying whether that verse is meant to be understood literally or figuratively. You asked for my opinion on a variety of passages, literal or figurative? I gave you my opinion. Now, no doubt, some Bible readers will disagree with my opinion on every passage you asked me to comment on. And I see no problem with that. For it may well be that some of my opinions are wrong. It may also be that God did not intend for all passages of the Bible to be fully and properly understood by all people in this day and age. However, I'm sure that someday everything in the Bible will be fully and properly understood by all. The apostle Paul wrote, "Now we see things imperfectly as in a poor mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity." (1 Cor. 13:12) In the meantime no one has to fully understand all of the Bible to receive God's forgiveness and eternal life. They only need to accept Jesus Christ as their Lord. Over the last 2,000 years billions of people have somehow managed to do that, despite the fact that they have not understood every passage of scripture or had answers to all of life's mysteries. I will comment on one point you just raised. You wrote: Effectively, then, you believe there are two distinct species of human: those who are descended from Adam and Eve and those who already existed? How do you reconcile this with the observable reality that all humans appear in every measurable way to be descended from a common ancestor? Though Adam and Eve were created by God at a different time and in a different way than the pre-adamic human race, they were not a different species of human. I believe they were exactly like every other human being on the planet. They had to be in order to be fairly used by God as representatives of the human race. Thus, I believe that had you examined their DNA, the results of those tests would have shown what appeared to be a very ancient origin. This may raise the question, "If they were just like us why did they, and some of their descendents, live so long?" I believe the answer is, "The Tree of Life." The Bible tells us that "the Tree of Life" was "in the middle of the garden," along with "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." (Gen. 2:9) God told Adam he could "eat from every tree of the garden" except for "the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil." (Gen. 2:16,17) That means Adam and Eve had been eating from the "Tree of Life" right along, prior to their being expelled from Eden. I believe doing so greatly lengthened their lives and the lives of their as yet unborn children. Had they not been expelled from Eden, and had they been allowed to continue eating from "the Tree of Life," they would have lived forever. However, they were expelled from Eden and, no longer being able to eat from the tree of life, they eventually died. The unusually long life spans which Adam and Eve passed to their descendents gradually diminished, probably largely as a result of their marrying non-adamites.

  • funkyderek
    funkyderek

    aChristian:

    Now, no doubt, some Bible readers will disagree with my opinion on every passage you asked me to comment on. And I see no problem with that. For it may well be that some of my opinions are wrong.

    Glad you admit that. Isn't there any way to know?

    It may also be that God did not intend for all passages of the Bible to be fully and properly understood by all people in this day and age.

    But it's been the guiding light for billions of people for thousands of yours. Why would he not design it to be understood? How can anybody follow a belief system they can't understand?

    In the meantime no one has to fully understand all of the Bible to receive God's forgiveness and eternal life. They only need to accept Jesus Christ as their Lord.

    Assuming you're understanding that part of the Bible correctly (and, of course, the parts that apparently contradict it).

    Though Adam and Eve were created by God at a different time and in a different way than the pre-adamic human race, they were not a different species of human. I believe they were exactly like every other human being on the planet. They had to be in order to be fairly used by God as representatives of the human race. Thus, I believe that had you examined their DNA, the results of those tests would have shown what appeared to be a very ancient origin.

    So you believe that God created Adam and Eve separately from other humans but made them exactly the same as any other humans in every measurable way. You believe this despite the fact that there is no evidence - how could there be? - and the fact that the Bible makes no such claim. On what do you base this extraordinary belief?

  • seattleniceguy
    seattleniceguy

    Midget-Sasquatch,

    The mitochodrion (and chloroplasts in plants- which also have their own circular DNA) are about the size of typical bacteria and double-membraned. This has led to the hypothesis that mitochodria (and chloroplasts) were originally separate bacteria and they entered symbiotic relationships with other cells, eventually evolving to the more familiar eukaryotic animal (or plant) cells we're familiar with. Neat stuff to contemplate.

    This is fascinating. I remember when my biology teacher at the community college I went to tried to explain this to us. Of course, I was too bull-headed to listen and instead dismissed it out of hand before even hearing the evidence with a very JW-esque, "I can't believe how they just accept speculations!" Oh, the irony. Anyway, I was wondering if (besides the talkorigins site cited at the beginning of this thread) you have any books to recommend on this subject?

    SNG

  • a Christian
    a Christian

    Derek, I wrote: For it may well be that some of my opinions are wrong.

    You asked: Isn't there any way to know? To know what? If everything which we presently believe to be true really is true? Obviously not. Not in this life anyway. For instance, the only way anyone will ever know for sure if there is life after death is to die. I believe we will then have opportunity to get answers to all our questions. For, as Paul said, "Then we will see everything with perfect clarity." (1 Cor. 13:12) I wrote: It may also be that God did not intend for all passages of the Bible to be fully and properly understood by all people in this day and age.

    You asked: Why would he not design it to be understood? How can anybody follow a belief system they can't understand? I didn't say the Christian belief system is too complicated to be understood. In fact, it is very simple. Human beings are less righteous than God. The events in Eden clearly demonstrated that fact. Because of our unrighteousness we do not deserve to live forever. We deserve to die. However, God sent His Only Begotten Son into this world to pay the penalty for our sins, to die in our place. In order to have God forgive all of our sins, and to be given eternal life by Him all we have to do is truly accept what He has done for us. Jesus once told His disciples, "I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now." (John 16:12) If, for instance, God used evolution as His means of creation, as I believe He did and as I believe the Bible itself indicates, God may well have known that many people would have trouble dealing with that reality. So, rather than clearly saying such a thing in the Bible I believe God told the story of His creation in broad figurative terms, terms which all Bible readers would be able to live with, regardless of their level of maturity or their particular sensibilities. You wrote: So you believe that God created Adam and Eve separately from other humans but made them exactly the same as any other humans in every measurable way. You believe this despite the fact that there is no evidence - how could there be? - and the fact that the Bible makes no such claim. On what do you base this extraordinary belief? Context. As you know, Genesis tells two different creation stories. If they both are describing the same set of events these two stories are contradictory. If they both are describing the same set of events the author was a fool. For anyone can see the two accounts tell two different stories. If, however, Genesis is describing two different sets of events, one which followed the other, then and only then does Genesis makes sense. When I say, "Context," I also refer to the fact that Genesis clearly tells us that a populated land called "Nod" existed just beyond the garden of Eden, a land filled with people who Adam's son Cain was afraid might kill him and where Cain later found a wife. (Gen 4:12-17) If the writer of Genesis meant to tell us that Adam and Eve were the first and only people on earth at the time of their creation, why would he have told us about "the land of Nod"? When I say, "Context," I also refer to the fact that the writer of Genesis carefully recorded a year-by-year chronological history of nearly all the events recorded in Genesis, a chronological history which connects with the rest of the Bible's chronological historical records, a history which was clearly designed to tell us that the Adam of scripture was created by God only 4,000 years before the birth of Christ. But since we know mankind has been on earth far longer than 6,000 years "context" tells us, if the Bible is God's Word, Adam could not have literally been "the first man." So far as my beliefs on this subject matter being, "extraordinary," as I have said before, many Christians have understood the scriptures in this way from at least the time of Roman emperor Julian who ruled Rome from 361 to 363. He has been called "Julian the apostate" for the way he understood some parts of the Bible. Today many Christians continue to understand the Bible in this way, though admittedly we are a small minority. With as much as we know today about the age of the human race, I believe this understanding will soon gain much wider acceptance. To paraphrase Christ, "I now have many more things to say to you, for you can bear them now." Earlier I recommended a good book to you on this subject matter, The Origins Solution.

  • Gerard
    Gerard

    This is one of the imminent problems that arise when the Bible is taken as a literal truth. Sure, some events did happen as corroborated by other historical sources, but when it goes into the paranormal, [edited to add:] if you must read it, it is best to read it in the spirit in which it was written: Parables and metaphores to ilustrate concepts .

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