DNA - belief destuction

by donkey 85 Replies latest jw friends

  • donkey
    donkey

    The single largest reason to decimate my belief in JW?s and all biblical faith occurred when I discovered some facts about our cells. Specifically a part of the cell called Mitochondria.

    Mitochondria are sometimes described as "cellular power plants" because their primary purpose is to manufacture adenosine triphosphate (ATP), which is used as a source of energy that the cell uses.

    As humans one inherits one?s mitochondria only from one's mother, this finding implies that all living humans have a female line of descent from a woman whom researchers have dubbed Mitochondrial Eve. We do NOT inherit our Mitochondria from our fathers.

    Since we are all humans one might expect us all to have identical Mitochondria. Not so. If we look at the spectrum of humanity geographically and racially we discover that different groups have mitochondria with sufficient differences and we can investigate the mitochondrial differences of the human groups and plot all living humans today back to single woman ? known as the ?Mitochondrial Eve?.

    Biblical creationists might at this juncture point out that this is consistent with the Bible story of the first woman. Not so fast Batman!! If we believe the Bible we are left with a date of Eve?s existence being around 6,000 years ago. However, we can look at the different mitochondrial DNA of humans and examine them based on the molecular clock technique of correlating elapsed time with observed genetic drift. Using this technique we can clearly see that Mitochondrial Eve lived over 150,000 years ago, likely over 200,000 years ago.

    This calls into question Bible Chronology in tracing the lineage of humans back to the supposed Adam and Eve of the Bible ? else the hard evidence would support a mitochondrial drift dating back only 6,000 years but as I showed above the date if off by a factor of greater than 30. So where does this leave us? If the reason for a Messiah was to save us from Adamic sin and yet we cannot even closely correlate an Adam back to the Mitochondrial Eve (certainly not using the Bible explanation) then the whole concept of Adamic Sin falls flat and thus the need for Jesus to save us from Adamic sin. Without Adam and Jesus the Bible becomes largely pointless except to be a book of wisdom like so many other books.

    How can anyone learn about:

    • Mitochondria, how we inherit it from our mothers;
    • see the differences in the mitochondria of others;
    • and very obviously observe that the common ancestor of humanity lived way before Biblical explanation by a factor of 30

    and then still believe the rest of the Bible?

    While many believers will play ostrich with the blatant evidence and bury their heads in the sand they will look at my argument and say ?see we did have a beginning just like the Bible says?, I suggest they look into the matter intelligently. Reasoning on just this revelation and the implications thereof can change your life.

    For further reading I suggest these links:

    http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/mitoeve.html

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/A703199

  • Buster
    Buster

    And then of course is the nucleic DNA. We all inherit our Y-Chromosome from dear ole daddy. For the same reasons you state before, variances in DNA would have to fit within bible stories. In this case, all males would have inherited out Y-chrome from Noah. AND, all differences would have to be plausable in since then.

    The last I read on this topic, it was a paper that the variances pointed to a common Noah about 225,000 years ago.

    But let us not try to confuse reason with blind faith.

  • a Christian
    a Christian

    You make a couple of mistakes. First you wrongly assume that the Bible tells us that Adam was the first man who ever lived. It does not. Second, you misunderstand why Christ died. He died to pay for our sins, not to pay for what Adam did.

    You are right in saying that the Adam of Genesis lived only about 6,000 years ago and in saying that people just like us have lived on earth for about 200,000 years.

    To begin with, Bible chronology clearly indicates that only 4,000 years passed between the creation of Adam and the birth of Christ 2,000 years ago. But paleontologists, anthropologists and archcheologists all assure us that mankind has lived on earth far longer than 6,000 years. I believe this seeming conflict between Bible chronology and well established human history is easily resolved by understanding that the Bible does not tell us that Adam was, in an absolute chronological sense, "the first man". Rather, Adam and Eve were created by God and placed in Eden, a garden in the middle of an already widely populated world, to illustrate some very important lessons. Among them, the fact that none of us is deserving of eternal life. (By the way This understanding also answers the often asked questions, "Where did Cain get his wife?" and "Who were the people Cain was afraid might kill him?")

    The only place in Scripture Adam is referred to as the "first" man is in 1 Cor.15:45-47. There Adam is called "the first man". But there we also find that Jesus is called "the second man". The context shows that the writer of those words was referring to Adam as the "first" man only in his relative chronological position to Christ. In other words, since Adam came "first" and Christ came "second", Adam came before Christ.

    Some may object to this understanding of scripture, pointing out that their Bible tells them that God "made from one man every nation of men."(Acts 17:26) However, the words "one man" do not appear in Acts 17:26 in any ancient Bible manuscript. Most ancient manuscripts simply say that God "made from one every nation of Men." Other ancient Greek manuscripts, from which this portion of the Bible is translated, tell us that God "made from one blood every nation of men." For this reason The Amplified Bible here reads God "made from one [common origin, one source, one blood] all nations of men." The New English Bible translates this verse to tell us that God created every race of men from "one stock." So, Acts 17:26 can only be used to confirm that all people on earth are descended from ancestors who came from the same gene pool, and that all people on earth have the same original source of origin, a teaching which fully agrees with the findings of modern science. This verse does not say, in any Greek manuscript, that mankind's common origin was one man.

    Most other objections to this understanding of Scripture come from those who adhere to the doctrine of "The Fall" of mankind. This doctrine is based on what I believe is a misunderstanding of the apostle Paul's words in Romans 5:12-20 and 1Corinthians 15:21,22.

    The Bible clearly tells us that God will hold each one of us responsible for his or her own unrighteousness, not for Adam's. (Romans 14:10-12, 2 Corinthians 5:10) And the Scriptures say that we all need the forgiveness God offers us through Jesus Christ, because we have all personally "sinned" and have all personally "fallen short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23)

    I do not believe the Bible teaches that mankind "fell". Rather, I believe it tells us that God originally created the human race as free people. Free to do both right and wrong. In the exact same way we are free to do so today. Unfortunately we often choose to do what is wrong rather than what is right. God, however, cannot do wrong. For God is "incorruptable".(Romans 1:23) So, because we can and often do behave unrighteously, and because God cannot and never does behave unrighteously, we are less righteous than God. And, because "all unrighteousness is sin" we are all born "sinful".(1John 5:17, New American Standard Bible; Psalms 51:5)

    Being able to do wrong, Adam was, from his very beginning, also less righteous than God. And he later proved his "sinful" condition by his behavior. Because Adam in paradise could not manage to obey one simple command from God, he clearly demonstrated that he and the entire human race, including those who had lived before him and those who would live after him, were far less righteous than God.

    So, with these things in mind, Paul accurately referred to Adam when he wrote,"by one man's disobedience many were constituted sinners." (Romans 5:19, Amplified Bible) This is true because Adam's disobedience demonstrated that the entire human race was not only capable of doing wrong but incapable of not doing wrong. So, after Adam failed a simple God given test of his righteousness, God had good reason to retroactively condemn the entire human race as being deserving of the deaths they had been suffering, and undeserving of eternal life, a gift God had not yet given to any human being.

    I believe those who adhere to the doctrine of "The Fall" also basically misunderstand the events which transpired in Eden.

    The Genesis account clearly indicates that Adam and Eve were created mortal with a dying nature just like us. The story of Adam and Eve told in Genesis makes clear that their being able to live forever was not a part of their original physical nature. Rather, Adam and Eve's ability to live forever depended entirely on their eating from a tree "in the middle of the garden" of Eden, "the tree of life".(Genesis 2:9) Genesis tells us that Adam and Eve were going to be allowed to continue to eat from that tree only if they passed a God given test, a test which we are told they failed. After failing that test God expelled Adam and his wife from the Garden of Eden and prevented them from ever again eating from "the tree of life".

    Genesis indicates that had Adam and Eve been allowed to continue eating from "the tree of life" their lives would have been prolonged indefinately.(Genesis 3:22-24) But when God prevented them from ever again eating from "the tree of life" they died what were apparently natural deaths. A careful reading of the Genesis account shows us that living forever would have been as unnatural for Adam and Eve as it would now be for us.

    Genesis does not indicate that Adam and Eve originally had eternal life programmed into their genetic codes by God and later had their genetic codes reprogrammed by God in order to remove eternal life from those codes. Rather, Genesis indicates that Adam and Eve would have lived forever only if God had graciously given them eternal life from an outside source, "the tree of life".

    Of course, that "tree of life" was meant to picture Jesus Christ.

    For, as we have seen, God was going to give Adam and Eve eternal life from an outside source, "the tree of life", only if they passed a very simple test. And the Bible tells us that we will be given eternal life from an outside source, Jesus Christ, only if we pass a very simple test. That test is to simply believe in our hearts that Christ's death was sufficient payment to buy every human being God's full forgiveness, forgiveness for both our sinful nature and our sinful acts.

    By the way, this understanding of scripture is not by any means new, it has just not yet been widely embraced. The Roman emperor Julian the Apostate (A.D. 331-363) held this understanding of scripture, but he thought erroneously it could be used as a counterpoint to Christianity to restore paganism. Isaac de la Peyrere, a Catholic priest, held this understanding of Scripture in 1656. For his efforts he was forced to recant and his books were burned. In 1860, one year after Charles Darwin published The Origin of Species, Bible scholar Edward William Lane published this understanding, but anonymously to escape reprisals. Today this understanding is being advanced by Christians such as Richard Fischer. Fischer graduated from the University of Missouri with a Bachelor of Science degree. His first article on religion was published in The Washington Post in 1986. He received his master's degree in theology in 1992. He has published articles in Perspectives on Science and Christian Faith, and has reviewed articles for publication in Christian Scholar's Review. He is a member of American Scientific Affiliation, Interdisciplinary Biblical Research Institute, Evangelical Theological Society, and he is listed in Who's Who in Theology and Science.

    Fisher's book on the subject is entitled The Origins Solution. Some sample chapters of it can be read and copies of it can be ordered from his publisher's web site. http://www.orisol.com/

  • the_classicist
    the_classicist

    Another problem with that arguement is that DNA does evolve and change. It only takes about a year for a bacterium to evolve to resist antibiotics from inhibiting peptidoglycan production (but it takes about 12 years to come up with a new antibiotic - at least thats what the pharmers say).

  • donkey
    donkey
    believe this seeming conflict between Bible chronology and well established human history is easily resolved by understanding that the Bible does not tell us that Adam was, in an absolute chronological sense, "the first man". Rather, Adam and Eve were created by God and placed in Eden, a garden in the middle of an already widely populated world, to illustrate some very important lessons. Among them, the fact that none of us is deserving of eternal life. (By the way This understanding also answers the often asked questions, "Where did Cain get his wife?" and "Who were the people Cain was afraid might kill him?")

    You choose to disbelieve a lot of stuff in the Bible then. For instance, the bible says God mad Eve from Adam's rib. Following your arguments this would not be true - so the bible must then be inaccurate.

    The Bible clearly says that through ONE man, Adam, sin entered the world and thus we are all born with sin.

    I could easily say I only belive in the book of Jude and the rest of the bible is misunderstood but the Bible is true nonetheless. It takes massive amounts of faith to belive in the Bible and what it says; does it take even more faith to believe in only a piece here and there? I would think so...

  • donkey
    donkey

    Another point on your logic: Is sin inherited? If not then all new born babies are perfect - correct? If that is true is a deformed newborn perfect? Is an aborted fetus perfect? If so then according to your logic they don't need to rely on Jesus sacrifice for their sins...and then one can ask how it is possible for a perfect person to die.

    If on the other hand they are born sinless and mortal, its a silly arrangement because God then stacked the deck.

    There is further no point at all in the Genesis account is there?

  • JustTickledPink
    JustTickledPink

    I never could wrap my brain around the fact that the whole Bible was written about things that happened in the middle east. The Garden of Eden and Jesus... etc.

    What about the bush people in New Guinea? What about the native Indians of the Americas? What about the eskimos? the aborigines? What about all the people who due to transportation and communication limitations were never affected by the Bible? What about their history? Why should the story of Adam & Eve be THE story, when there are many different versions of history, passed down in many different cultures?

  • Mutz
    Mutz

    No matter what long drawn out arguments, circular reasonings, twisted logic and
    outright deceptions bible bashers use the facts are that the Bible does not stand
    up to any form of honest scientific scrutiny.
    By scientific I mean following the established Scientific Method and not the fabrications
    and psuedo science employed by Creationists and their ilk.

  • Midget-Sasquatch
    Midget-Sasquatch

    Evidence from mitochondrial DNA sequencing also suggests African origins for our species. There's a greater number of sequence variations among people of African descent than among other ethnicities like Europeans for instance. Fewer sequence variations implies less time has passed for mutations to accumulate, and a greater number of changes implies a longer history for that line. So the molecular evidence supports the paleontological evidence for our ancestors coming from Africa.

    Here's a side point on mitochondrial DNA, and the mitochodrion itself, that also has a bearing on evolution vs. creation. Why does that organelle have its own distinct DNA anyway? The DNA is circular to boot, very much like bacterial plasmids. The DNA in the rest of our cells is linear and at certain stages are packaged as chromatids/chromosomes. The mitochodrion (and chloroplasts in plants- which also have their own circular DNA) are about the size of typical bacteria and double-membraned. This has led to the hypothesis that mitochodria (and chloroplasts) were originally separate bacteria and they entered symbiotic relationships with other cells, eventually evolving to the more familiar eukaryotic animal (or plant) cells we're familiar with. Neat stuff to contemplate.

  • donkey
    donkey

    As far as our ancestors coming from Africa, a clearer analysis is possible using chromosomal DNA, some highly variable segments of which are far more variable than mitochondrial DNA, so providing more "markers" to compare.

    In 1996, a large team of geneticists from six countries reported the results of a comprehensive nuclear DNA study. The team analyzed, in human populations all over the world, two variable parts of the CD4 gene (the cell surface receptor on white blood cells that recognizes the AIDS-causing HIV virus) located on human chromosome 12. They examined 1,600 individuals in forty-two populations. A total of 24 different versions of the two segments were found. Fully 21 of them were present in human populations in Africa, while three were found in Europeans and only two in Asians and in Americans.

    This argues forcefully that chromosome 12 has existed in African humans far longer than in non-African humans. Together with fossils of early H. sapiens from Africa and Israel, these results strongly support an Out-of-Africa model of human origins. Thus, while still hotly debated, it appears likely that H. sapiens evolved once in Africa, then migrated out of Africa to Europe and Asia.

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