Hello, I need a few JW views on a couple of bible verses. Thanks!

by Chance 39 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Chance

    Hello JW forums,

    After careful study I was curious to hear the views & interpretations of a bible verse from a few JWs.

    After reading each of the following verses ask yourself, what does that verse mean?

    New World Translation:

    Isaiah: 41.4 "Who has been active and has done this, calling out the generations from the start? I Jehovah, the First One; and with the last ones I am the same."

    Isaiah: 44.6 "This is what Jehovah has said, the King of Israel and the Repurchaser of him, Jehovah or armies, I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God."

    Isaiah: 44.7 "And who is there like me?"

    Revelation: 1.17 "And when I saw him, I fell as dead at his feet. And he laid his right hand upon me and said: "Do not be fearful. I am the First and the Last,"

    Revelation: 22.13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

    I apologize if it seems a-bit redundant. It plainly states that Jehovah is the First & Last, the beginning & end, the Alpha & Omega. And we all know there is only one Jehovah.

    Now, after reading that and drawing a conclusion to what each individual verse states, I come to my question.
    What is the Jehovah's Witness interpretation of the next verse?

    Revelation: 2.8 "And to the angel of the congregation in Smyrna write: These are the things that he says, 'the First and the Last,' who became dead and came to life again.

    Became dead and back? Our father, Jehovah God, as we all know is eternal, with no beginning or ending. So what does it mean by "became dead"? The only one in the bible I know of who died and came back to life was Jesus.

    A bit of history:
    For the first thousand years after the death of Jesus Christ, there was only one Christian Church. There were no denominations. The Church was born in Jerusalem but the Apostles soon spread the teachings of Christ to other areas. They went North to Antioch in present day Syria, Constantinople in present day Turkey, South to Alexandria in Egypt and West to Rome. In each of these metropolitan centers of Christianity a Bishop was placed as the overseer of that area. In 1054 AD the Bishop of Rome attempted to assert authority over the entire Church instead of just his area or jurisdiction. This was the first split in the Christian Church and the beginning of the Roman Catholic Church. The remaining four Patriarchs (Bishops) continued together in collegiality as the Church had always been and took the name Orthodox Christian Church or Eastern Orthodox Church.

    In the last thousand years there have been several more splits in the Christian church. Today there are hundreds of Christian denominations. The Jehovah's Witness denomination has only been around since the founding of the WatchTower after 1879, originally written by Charles Taze Russell (according to my sources).
    Every Christian denomination except for the JW, recognizes Jesus Christ as God incarnate. Having been raised in a JW home, the first time I heard someone address Jesus Christ as Jehovah incarnate, the idea of that seemed alien to me. I realize now that it was the JW doctrine about Jesus Christ that was strange to the majority of other Christian Doctrines.

    One more thing I've thought about recently; before the comings of Jesus, the people of God were all Jews. All the faithful Jews and followers of God were considered "Gods children". The Jewish laws did not condemn people for saying they were children of God. Why then were the Pharisees so distraught with Jesus as to have him turned over to the Romans and condemned to be tortured and finally put to death. Didn't they accuse him of blasphemy? What did he say that they would consider blasphemy? That he was the "Son of God"? I don't see why that would have been an issue. However, if anyone ever claimed to be God, that would have been considered blasphemy. They would have asked him to prove it by some sort of miracle or spectacle only Jehovah himself could do. Jesus didn't show them the miracle they demanded and he was turned over to the Romans and put to death after much controversy.

    Everyone knows John 3:16; "For God loved the world, so much that he gave his only begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life".

    This verse would hold so much more meaning if you have a revelation of Jesus as being God incarnate, (creating a human body for himself to live a human life among us. Then give that life to pay for the sins of humanity and prove his unconditional love for us) rather than for God to let anyone else (or an angel) die to prove his love.

    Also, Islam's main doctrinal concern with Christianity is that they believe in Jesus but only as a prophet and not God incarnate. This triggered the Crusades in the medieval ages and caused the second split of the original Christian church. 600+ years after the death of Jesus, Mohammad claimed that all Christianity had distorted it view of Jesus as God and that portion of the Christian church declared Mohammad as the Antichrist. This further supports that mainstream Christian belief was that Jesus was God incarnate well after the first thousand years of Christianity. This dispute is the only major separation between Christianity and Islam. Being that Jehovah and Allah are both considered the God of Abraham.

    I serve Jehovah God and wish only to obey him and further my understanding of his truth and his people.

    So... back to my question.

    What are a few Jehovah Witness interpretations of Revelation 2:8?

    Thank you Jehovahs-winess.com & Jehovah God for this opportunity to discus this type of doctrinal issue peacefully without unnecessary argumentation.

  • Chance

    Whoah! I didn't realize this forum was going to take all my spacing out and merge my parragraphs. Sorry! :)

  • Valis

    As well, you probably did not realize that most of us here are former Jehovah's Witnesses. Welcome to the forum.


    District Overbeer

  • glitter

    To make it not screw up your paragraphs you need to click on the box labelled "Automatic Cr/Lf".

  • jgnat

    NOT a JW here, but here is the reasoning on the Alpha and Omega thing, from their "Reasoning from the Scriptures" text.

    "While many commentators apply this title both to God and to Christ, a more careful examination of its use restricts its application to the supreme God." The article goes on to describe how the speaker switches back and forth throughout the book of Revelation, and concludes that the Alpha and Omega in Revelation 22 is spoken by Jehovah God. "The title "the Alpha and the Omega" carries the same thought as "the first and the last" and it is appropriately applied to Jehovah God in an unlimited way as being the first of all things, their Beginner, and also the Almighty whose powe4r is capable of bringing all things to a successful end or realization. -- Compare Isaiah 44:6"

  • AlmostAtheist


    I admit I didn't read your entire post, but it sounds like you're trying to convince us to leave the Watchtower. Way ahead o' ya'! Most here have already left.

    BUT, I have to say THANK YOU for taking the time to try to help us. I hope you have success with the JW's you encounter. The more people that leave that cult, the better.

    Take care, and welcome to the forum!


  • jwsons
  • BlackSwan of Memphis
    BlackSwan of Memphis

    hey chance.... yeah most here are ex jw... however i did want to take a minute to address one of your questions which i thought was interesting....

    you brought up the issue about why the pharisees would have accused jesus of blasphemy for saying he was the son of God. Interestingly you didn't really go much further.... I have a thought from Ron Rhodes which I thought you might really like.

    He brings up the point that in the ancient days to say "Son of" did not necessarily mean offspring of. In fact he cites a couple of different verses where it carries the meaning of "in the order of" You might want to note these verses: 1 Kings 20:35 where it says "the sons of the prophets" and Nehemiah 12:28 where it says "sons of the singers".

    In the same sense to make the claim Son of God, would have meant in the order of God. He also says the ancient Semitics and Orientals used the phrase Son of to indicate likeness and sameness of nature and equality of being.

    ANyhooo.... regarding Revelation.... yeah, I know kinda iffy for the jw case. While many on here are ex jw. Many people who read some of these posts are not sure what to think. Your comments are much appreciated, hope your stay here is pleasant.

  • pericusmeus


    I am a Jehovah's witness but, I don't quite share some of the views of the WTS.

    First of all, we have to admit that God cannot die, nor fake his own death.

    The Bible also states that Jesus was resurrected by God ( 2:24 Acts) This means while Jesus was dead, Jehovah was alive and he resurrected him. Other verses are Acts 13:32, acts2:32.

    So, theres is no much to discuss about the issue, Jehovah and Jesus are separate persons, that at one time, one of them was alive and the other one dead.

    Now, to understand the verses of the Bible that seem to identify Jesus as God, we have to remember this facts and admit that the Bible cannot teach two different doctirnes and both be true.

    The Bible teaches that "Eternal Father" is an apropriate name for Jesus, so we have to find out why.

    The Bible says that jesus is the beginning and the end, we have to find out why.

    But every time remembering the clear truth that I pointed out above.

    The fact is that Nicea in the 3rd century was the concile that established (not by unanimity) the doctrine of the trinity. The rest of what you say is true. Jesus himself did not established any religion. but though taought that the christians will be divided until he came back.

    How do we recognize the true disciples of Jesus? He answered, Mat 7: 16

    If Jesus would have wanted us to identify his people by doctrines, he would have given us a multiple choice questionaire with the correct answers checked. But he did not, he said that love would identify his true disciples and nod perfect doctrine.

    My rothers witnesses spend hundreds o hours trying to proclaim the name of god and the good news of the kingdom of god. They think it is an effort that soon will end in Armagedon, it is not. The Bible predicts clearly that one day all the world will be full of Gods knowledge, that time has not yet come.

    The only thing I cn tell you is what I personaly understand from my daily readings of the Bible.

    I have also come to doubts about the identity of Jesus, but at the end I always go back to the specific and non interpretative truths of the verses ( an a lot more) that I mentined.

    The Universe has no limits and no center, so how can be God contained?

    I understand that in the far past, God created the Word. A creature identical to him but finite and subject to death. This acient creature's asignement was to create the rest of the things following the will of God. And to command the rest of the creatures that would be created by him Joh 17:5,24. If he talks, al the other creatures could assume that was god himself who was talking because this powerful creature does not do anything by its own, but only what he sees the father do or what the father commands Joh 5:19. If you have seen the Word, you have seen the Father, they are one, as the Bible states.

    Through him, the father sends blessings to al his creatures, using his Holy Spirit, or the Spirit of the Truth, wich is another manifestation of God. When someone gets it, is God himself that is atcuating, because is the power of God.

    So God uses two channels to interact with his creation, The Word, and the Holy Spirit. Thatis is why no men has seen god before, but the one that came from God, Jesus, the Word incaranate.

    When Satans revelion arose an opportunity was presented to Jesus, to rescue mankind from its destiny, but most important with that, to prove himself loyal. How could a so powerful creature prove himself loyal. By coming to earth and dying the way Jesus died. God offered the Word the opportunity of having an eternal spirit ( Heb 9:14). Yes, if someone could prove himself loyal to God to the point of death and extreme suffering he would grant inmortality. That was the motivation of Jesus to come and die, and of course his love for mankind.

    Isn't Jesus the beginning of everything, yes. And after his resurrection to an inmortal life he is also the end. That was the will of God.

    No other creature has been granted such holliness andso many priviledges. To the point that God allows us to proskineo to him andto worship God bending our knees in the name of Jesus, because Jesus died for the Glory of God the Father.

    It is understandable that many true christians are not able to understand the nature of God and the Word and the Holy Ghost, because they are really manifestations of the same deity.

    I hope this helps you in your search for the truth.


  • Chance

    I tried to edit my post and check/uncheck the box one of you mentioned above to fix the formatting & spacing but it gives me an error. I would fix it if I could.

    <---- Not done reading your posts reading your posts yet.

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