god is dead

by teejay 52 Replies latest jw friends

Undecided

Hi Friday,
WOW, why are so many trying to get to heaven when we have so much more fun here as humans, and the angels are trying to get a piece of the action!
Ken P.
Yadirf

Undecided
How can you explain God's love in view of ticks, fleas, mosquitos, viruses, parasites, which plague humans, animals and plants?
Such things are not God's doings, it's all the consequence of God's right to rule being called into question. The imbalance that we observe and are subjected to is due to the foolishness of our forefather Adam, and a superior creature known as Satan. Why is it that we wear eyeglasses and hearing aids? Why are there tornadoes and earthquakes? All for the same reasons of course.
Maybe his way of ruling isn't the best. Think, did man make these things or would the Devil make them to prove his way of ruling was best?
No, I don't think "the Devil" made them for the purpose of proving that he could rule better than God. That would be self defeating. But you did touch on the whole crux of the matter when you said: "Maybe his [God's] way of ruling isn't the best." That was the question in the beginning. That's the very reason that your dog has ticks and fleas. What did YOUR dog do to deserve this? Simply that he has a master that is old enough to be impotent but yet don't have the answers to life's most basic questions. ;-)
Friday
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Yadirf

Undecided
WOW, why are so many trying to get to heaven when we have so much more fun here as humans, and the angels are trying to get a piece of the action!
Interesting thought! Actually it is not any more of a natural thing for humans to desire heavenly life than it is for heavenly creatures to desire things of the flesh. It all just goes to show that Jehovah's Witnesses have the right perspective about what the Bible actually teaches, as contrasted with Christendom's cherished idea that all the saved will inherit 'heaven'. If it weren't for a good reason, not even the 144,000 would be going there. The actual truth is, is that those of that class who do go to heaven for the 1000-year period will NOT remain there after that time is up ... not any more than Jesus would remain here on earth after he had accomplished the purpose for which he came here.
Friday
PS> Looks like I may be fond of the word "actual" this fine day ... I just noticed that I actually used that term three times without actually taking a breath in between. :-)
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terraly

Do you deliberately misunderstand what you read when it doesn't agree with you Friday?
While many supernovae have been seen in nearby galaxies, they are relatively rare events in our own galaxy. The last to be seen was Kepler's star in 1604.
Look at the first part that you didn't bold. Many supernovae are seen in other galaxies- the last one was this past July 4th (as it says on the site). The last supernovae in our galaxy was seen in 1604, but we can also see other galaxies you know- and the few we (or past astronomers) have seen in our galaxy confirm that it's not something unique to other galaxies, but a universal process.
teejay

Danny,
Earlier I'd said: "the only thing he can be credited with is giving humans a brain and then letting them exercise free will in whatever direction (not always good) they saw fit, a course not unlike people fumbling around in a dark room trying to find their way out. Eventually they will." I'd like to amend that statement from "they will" to "SOME OF THEM will."
As you pointed out, there have always been elements in the world who have threatened civilization's equilibrium and today's world is no exception. I forget who it was years ago, either President Carter or Reagan, who ominously admitted that for the first time in man's history he (we) indeed had the capability (if not the seeming willingness) to bring about his own extinction. After struggling, as you said for millions of years, to reach this stage of heightened development only to risk it all because of the lust for power on the part of a handful... what a tragedy that would be.
Again, religionists have little to say but that god is merely looking on in mute amazement at "his" creative works, dutifully keeping his profound observations to himself... at least for the past two millenia.
First offended last to appease?
I know I've been living under a rock, but I don't think I've heard that before. Would you elaborate?
My sister: "i still hope for that bright clean shiny "new world."
You: Your sister's simple declaration, is probably reflective of almost everyone alive today. Even those who would only enjoy it for a temporary time period, would probably love to see it. Hell, I settle for turning the clock back 30 yrs. and having a stab at it, all over again. Think I would do any better?
I admit that sometimes I allow myself the simple recollection of a time when I shared my sister's simple viewpoint, and truth be told, I miss it. I get a little choked up, thinking how wonderful it would be to live during a time like that of god's making, when all of our worries, every single one of them, were faded memories. A simple declaration indeed, but how wonderful to be able to live with that genuine hope. It would make life a bit more bearable, especially during the hard times.
Somewhere along the way, though, I made the mistake of rousing myself from slumbering, woke up and decided to face the real world. Now why did I have to go and do something stupid like that? Sometimes I miss those days of blissful ignorance, I really do.
I guess that is why I can barely tolerate anyone that claims to have a special pipeline to God. I say buyer beware. Like you I will wait for a very unambiguous, clear and consise, HELLO THIS IS GOD SPEAKING...before I ever turn over my life and will to another revealer.
Same here. If I could only hear it once... a voice, a whisper, even a dream... the ones like Shelby has several times everyday. For me, Toto has pulled back the curtain and revealed nothing but a man I'm afraid. Try as I might, I see no god.
peace, my friend,
tj
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I think you are failing to take into consideration the more important issues, TJ. We do well, if we want to understand why it is taking so long for God to straighten things out, to consider the enormous problem that was created when members of BOTH the angelic realm and the earthly realm of God's intelligent creation called into question their Creator's right to govern the universe. As is generally the case, the bigger the problem the greater the amount of time that is required to overcome that problem.
No, Friday, I think I've duly taken into consideration the "more important issues." I understand that the problem was a big one and needed a big solution. Here's the thing... a thought that dawned on me about ten years ago:
Even before the arrival of the purported Messiah, for thousands of years in among human affairs, a question, like a mustard stain on a dress shirt that refused to go away, rumbled like so much background music on a movie soundtrack: Could man save himself? The question of man's ability to produce a way out of his biggest problem (imperfection and it's byproduct, everlasting death) had been conclusively answered -- mankind was a lost life-form with a need of a redeemer outside of the human sphere. If he was ever going to have a hope and be saved, "god" was going to have to do it.
So Jehovah (supposedly) sent to earth his son, who proved faithful to death. Jesus paid the price, perfectly answering the challenge Satan made in the Garden, correct? What piece of the puzzle has been missing since then, these past 2,000 years? In other words, what has god been waiting on? What further evidence needs to be compiled to demonstrate man's helplessness and hopelessness in view of a) the 4,000 years of previous evidence and, b) Jesus already answering the challenge?
Your viewpoint, one I had for most of my life, no longer makes any sense.
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philo
Thanks for your input about Equiano. As I may have mentioned, the way I came to know of him is by way of a sidebar in a pre-1865 American history book, but you are correct -- he didn't throw himself into the water but only witnessed it. An excerpt from The Interesting Narrative of the Life of Olaudah Equiano or Gustavus Vassa, the African:
"At last, when the ship we were in had got in all her cargo, they
made ready with many fearful noises, and we were all put under
deck... The stench of the hold... became absolutely pestilential. The
closeness of the place, and the heat of the climate, added to the
number in the ship, which was so crowded that each had scarcely
room to turn himself, almost suffocated us. This produced copious
perspirations, so that the air soon became unfit for respiration, from a
variety of loathsome smells, and brought on a sickness amongst the
slaves, of which many died, thus falling victims to the improvident
avarice, as I may call it, of their purchasers. This wretched situation
was again aggravated by the galling of the chains, now become
insupportable; and the filth of the necessary tubs, into which children
often fell, and were almost suffocated. The shrieks of the women, and
the groans of the dying, rendered the whole scene of horror almost
inconceivable. Happily perhaps for myself I was soon reduced so low
here that it was thought necessary to keep me almost always on deck;
and from my extreme youth on, I was not put in fetters...
One day, when we had a smooth sea, and moderate wind, two of my
wearied countrymen, who were chained together preferring death to
such a life of misery, somehow made it through the nettings, and
jumped into the sea; immediately another quite dejected fellow, who
on account of his illness, was suffered to be out of irons, also followed
their example; and I believe many more would very soon have done
themselves, if they had not been prevented by the ship?s crew, who
were instantly alarmed... However the two wretches were drowned,
but they got the other, and afterwards, flogged him unmercifully, for
thus attempting to prefer death to slavery. In this manner, we
continued to undergo more hardships than I can now relate; hardships
which are inseparable from this accursed trade. Many a time we were
near suffocation, from the want of fresh air, which we were often
without for whole days together. This, and the stench of the necessary
tubs, carried off many..."
As I mentioned, I only brought Olaudah's words to my sister's attention as representative of god's total lack of intervention and utter inattention (throughout history up till this very moment in time) to human suffering as opposed to the fairly widespread belief of his loving, merciful and omnipotent care.
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Jan
Thanks for clarifying who it was that coined the term "god is dead." My recollection of it during the hippy movement is the only contact I personally had to it. I had no intention of stealing Nietzche's thunder.
Your note tells me at least two things... 1) the story about the madman was interesting in that either he was mad or quite sane (Nietzsche's inside joke, I guess) and that I've come to more or less adopt this same view by reasoned observation of tangible evidence in my own world a hundred years later, and 2) I may need to do a little reading.
Hmmm... "murdering god" -- an interesting proposition. I guess a certain portion of the population, more numerous in each succeeding generation, ends up doing that. Will there come a time when the belief in god isn't a foregone conclusion to begin with? I think we're not far from that time.
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Fred
I think most of YOU are dead spiritually.
Thanks, Fred.
peace all,
todd
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A new idea is the result of the dethroning of a reigning God.___? Christopher Hyatt
Undecided

Hi Friday,
According to the story in Genesis, who told the truth? Did Adam and Eve recognize good and evil after eating from the tree? Did they die that very day?
Such things are not God's doings, it's all the consequence of God's right to rule being called into question. The imbalance that we observe and are subjected to is due to the foolishness of our forefather Adam, and a superior creature known as Satan. Why is it that we wear eyeglasses and hearing aids? Why are there tornadoes and earthquakes? All for the same reasons of course.
So man created fleas, ticks and causes tornadoes and earthquakes, is that what you are saying? Maybe you ment that God screwed man's existence up to show him that he had been a bad boy.
I was raised with your explaination along with the end is comming soon. I don't believe the creator had anything to do with such a story.
Ken P.
Yadirf

Terraly
Okay, I admit that I likely could use some lessons in all THAT stuff.
And, no, I didn't intentionally misread what you refer to. But, you must admit that it was worded poorly and that it could be mistaken to mean what I first got out of it.
Did you go to my site and take a look at what my telescope is like, and sign my guest book? I haven't had that thing out of storage in ages. I do enjoy seeing the rings of Saturn and the likes first hand.
Friday,
of the NOT-SO-GREAT astronomer class.
Yadirf

Undecided
Quit fighting it, Ken. I provide the answer that it takes to satisfy the question and you merely avoid it and come up with another ridiculous question to hide behind. When are you going to come to grips with the fact that you are hiding from God Himself?
So man created fleas, ticks and causes tornadoes and earthquakes, is that what you are saying? Maybe you ment that God screwed man's existence up to show him that he had been a bad boy.
That's a ridiculous assertion. Don't you remember me using the word "consequence"?
According to the story in Genesis, who told the truth? Did Adam and Eve recognize good and evil after eating from the tree? Did they die that very day?
God himself told the truth, of course, it's not in Him to tell a lie. -- Hebrews 6:18.
Insofar as Adam and Eve 'recognizing' good and evil, that wasn't the issue at all. It was all about recognizing who had the right to determine what was good and bad ... the Creator, or the created. Certainly the first human pair stepped beyond their right by going against their Creator's explicit command not to make up their own rules for living within His universe.
Did they die that very day?
No they didn't. Nor was it ever said that they would! What WAS said, was that if ever they should in fact disobey the wise instructions of their loving and just Creator was NOT "You will positively die on the day you eat from it." (Ge 2:17) No, but the wording was instead like this: "In the day you eat from it you will positively die." A vast difference, as can be seen, unless of course one is desirous of seeing it differently to begin with. The proper way to understand the wording is that God was saying that if the day did came that they should decide to go against His explicit instructions then THAT would be the day that sealed their eventual fate. Unfortunately, the "day" did come that Eve first and then Adam decided to determine what was good and bad for themselves. They, in effect, decided to set their own standards. That proved to be the day that determined the fact that they no longer (in the state of mind they were in) were worthy of perpetual life. Not to say that they won't be resurrected, of course.
I was raised with your explaination along with the end is comming soon. I don't believe the creator had anything to do with such a story.
Yep, and that's what makes YOU so accountable. After having had the advantages that you've had you have unbelievably come to even doubt the truthfulness of the Bible ... and if I remember right you've fell so low as to even doubt the very existence of God.
Insofar as the bit about the end not coming as soon as the WTS had hoped and anticipated for it to come, aren't YOU glad that they make such mistakes Ken? Afterall, if there wasn't SOMETHING legitimate for apostates to point to -- being the fault-finders that they are -- they wouldn't be able to sleep at night due to the sound of the grinding of their teeth.
You are in deep dookie, Ken. :-)
Friday,
being just a tiny bit judgmental ... but having the goods on ole Ken.
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Yadirf

Undecided
I noticed in your attempt to edit the quote that you made that you are having difficulty in gettin' it right. First you did this:]QUOTE[ .......... ]/QUOTE[. (I had to reverse the brackets in order to disable the system. So turn them back around, would ya.)
You saw that didn't work, so then you tried this: QUOTE .......... /QUOTE.
This is what you have to do in order to get it to work right: ]quote[ .......... ]/quote[. See? It has to be done in lower case letters.
Just feelin' sorry fer ya. :-(
Friday
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teejay

Friday, any comments on what i said to you above?

god is dead

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