Argument from an elder on why to not leave the JWs...

by undercover 48 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  undercover

  I got an interesting reply from an elder friend when I admitted that I had issues with the WTS. I had listed the failed predictions, the changing doctrines and the mistakes made by the WTS.

  He came back with the examples of the Israelites in the wilderness and under the various kings. The nation of Israel was still God's people despite their hardheadedness and sins. When the kings disobeyed and many of the people took up false worship, there were always those that still loved and worshipped Jehovah truthfully. When the spies brought back bad reports from the land of Canaan, many failed to trust in Jehovah to lead their armies but some still trusted in Jehovah and were willing to go as Jehovah instructed.

  Even though the nation as a whole had gone astray, there were still those faithful to Jehovah. Did they go out on their own and leave the nation? Did they ignore all the laws and commandments since the nation as a whole was showing disrespect to Jehovah? No. Jehovah still called them his chosen people and those that were really faithful endured the bad times along with the good. They waited on Jehovah.

  Today, if we see something that doesn't make sense in the congregation, or a doctrine can't be explained to our satisfaction are we going to forsake Jehovah because the WTS can't answer every question to everyone's satisfaction? We have to be willing to wait on Jehovah as those in the wilderness waited and those under bad kings waited. To leave shows disrespect for Jehovah's arrangement and selfishness.

  This conversation happened a couple of years ago and at the time I was left without a comeback. The quilt trip worked. Maybe I wasn't relying on Jehovah enough. The elder admitted that some mistakes were made and he admitted that 1975 was an embarrassement. But he said that we had to be like the sincere Israelites and wait on Jehovah.

  Since then I've given some thought to the things said by this elder and his argument no longer holds water for me.

  What would some of ya'll say to an elder that presented this argument? I'll present mine in another post.
• 

  xjw_b12

  He came back with the examples of the Israelites in the wilderness and under the various kings. The nation of Israel was still God's people despite their hardheadedness and sins. When the kings disobeyed and many of the people took up false worship, there were always those that still loved and worshipped Jehovah truthfully.

  My reply:

  "The WTS is the modern day prototype of those kings then, and the people who take up worship with them are today known as Jehovah's Witnesses. I will worship Jehovah, but not under the guidance of the disobediant kings"
• 

  free will

  that is the same response i got when i told my mother! Basically, i told her that they got it wrong too many times to be right.
• 

  AlmostAtheist

  The Israelites saw the 10 plagues, the Red Sea parting, the pillar of fire by night/smoke by day. They KNEW they were in God's organization.

  Even the 1st century christians had miraculous signs to convince them, in addition to all the alleged messianic prophecies pointing to Jesus.

  What's the GB today got? Nuthin'. No miracles, no signs, nothin'. So without those sorts of miracles, Jesus said we'd know them by their fruits. The Watchtower fruitage stinks. (non-scriptural doctrines, failed prophecies, cover-ups, dishonest mis-quoting) They aren't faithful to the Bible, they haven't been discreet enough to get away with it, so I have to say they fail to impress me as a faithful and discreet slave.

  Of course, I think the whole Bible thing is a bunch of baloney. But that's beside the point.

  Dave
• 

  Deputy Dog

  undercover

  What organization did "those that still loved and worshipped Jehovah truthfully." belong to . And don't say Israel, Israel is not an organization, it is a nation!

  Those that still loved and worshipped Jehovah truthfully, stayed in there country, worshiped God in spirit and in truth. They did not belong to an organization and God never lied to them.

  D Dog
• 

  Elsewhere

  But he said that we had to be like the sincere Israelites and wait on Jehovah.

  Sure, until Jehover got so sick of 'em that he scrapped his whole "contract" with them and started a new one with Jebus.

  "That's right! We are gods chosen people... a modern Israel. We are also gods sole channel of communication... so listen to use because we speak for god! We know this is true because we are as screwed up as the ancient nomads who pissed off god with their hierocracy, ignorance and rebelliousness."
• 

  AlanF

  This is easy, undercover. According to the OT, God promised Abraham to make his offspring into a numerous people, and eventually that happened when the Israelites grew in numbers. So no matter what they did, the Israelites were still the Israelites, and by birth, God's favored people.On the other hand, JW leaders claim that they became "spiritual Israelites" by virtue of being appointed to a spiritual postion by God due to their being so much more faithful than any other religious group. That supposedly occurred around 1879 when C. T. Russell began publishing Zion's Watch Tower, and was reemphasized in 1919 when God supposedly appointed them "over all Christ's belongings".

  So the difference is that in the one case, the Bible states that God chose the Israelites to be his favored people, whereas in the other case a group of people decided on their own that they were God's favored people.

  So unless the JWs can prove uneqivocally that their religion was and remains so much better than all others, and that their leaders were specially appointed because of this, their claim to spiritual authority is so much smoke. And of course, equating leaving their organization to leaving Jehovah is a joke.

  A related point is that it's obvious that God was not happy with the Israelites who went along with the wicked kings in doing bad things. But JW leaders expect all JWs to go along with them, even when they demand that JWs go against Bible principles or the law or common sense. They disfellowship those who disagree with them. I can't imagine God, assuming he exists, being happy with people who remain associated with a wicked organization simply because it claims exclusively to represent him.

  AlanF
• 

  undercover

  "The WTS is the modern day prototype of those kings then, and the people who take up worship with them are today known as Jehovah's Witnesses. I will worship Jehovah, but not under the guidance of the disobediant kings"

  I like that. That's pretty good.

  The Israelites saw the 10 plagues, the Red Sea parting, the pillar of fire by night/smoke by day. They KNEW they were in God's organization.

  Yea, the visual signs were too many to ignore.

  Of course, I think the whole Bible thing is a bunch of baloney. But that's beside the point.

  Same here...in those two years since that conversation, I have come to the conclusion that the Bible is not the inerrent word of God. So if someone doesn't accept the Bible how can you use it's verses to convince anyone of anything?

  What organization did "those that still loved and worshipped Jehovah truthfully." belong to . And don't say Israel, Israel is not an organization, it is a nation!

  That's part of my argument today. The nation of Israel wasn't God's earthly organization, they were his chosen people. He protected them, he fought for them, he guided them. Like was mentioned earlier, a pillar of fire led them through the wilderness. You had visual proof that something other than Moses was leading this group. (If you believe the Bible and that the stories are all true to begin with).
  Where's our visual proof today? There is none.

  Another thought I have is this....the Israelites that came out of Egypt did not make it to the promised land. Only Joshua(if memory serves me right) made it. All others, because of their not trusting Jehovah were doomed to die wandering in the wilderness. Going back to the elders argument; he said that some stayed faithful but yet relied on Jehovah and stayed with the nation. My response to that is: What did it get them? They died along with everyone else in the wilderness. What good did it do them to stay with the nation? The nation erred, God pronounced judgement on them, they died without seeing a home in the promised land. It didn't matter whether they rose up against Moses or obeyed Moses and God's laws.
  If the WTS speaaks false prophecies today, what good does it do me to stay in the JWs waiting on Jehovah? He will pronounce his judgement on them and all that follow along with them. I'll take my chances on my own thank you very much. If there is a Jehovah and he is going to exact vengeance on everyone, I might as well enjoy life on my terms until that time comes.
• 

  undercover

  I see a couple of other people posted while I was typing:

  Sure, until Jehover got so sick of 'em that he scrapped his whole "contract" with them and started a new one with Jebus.

  Yea, look at Israel today. And who is this Jesus you speak of? Is there any evidence outside of this fairy tale book called the Bible that he ever existed and is in fact the son of god??

  JW leaders claim that they became "spiritual Israelites" by virtue of being appointed to a spiritual postion by God due to their being so much more faithful than any other religious group. That supposedly occurred around 1879 when C. T. Russell began publishing Zion's Watch Tower, and was reemphasized in 1919 when God supposedly appointed them "over all Christ's belongings".

  It wasn't until I started questioning other thing about the WTS that I realized that 1919, the year of being appointed over Christ's belonging and 1935 the year heaven closed has no basis in scripture. You can't prove it, you can't predict it, you can't back it up.

  A related point is that it's obvious that God was not happy with the Israelites who went along with the wicked kings in doing bad things. But JW leaders expect all JWs to go along with them, even when they demand that JWs go against Bible principles or the law or common sense. They disfellowship those who disagree with them. I can't imagine God, assuming he exists, being happy with people who remain associated with a wicked organization simply because it claims exclusively to represent him.

  That kinda ties in with my thinking on why continue to be part of an organization that has proven wicked if even honest hearted people in a wicked organization get punished along with the evil ones.
• 

  iiz2cool

  The same reasoning can be used to trash the Watchtower position that all other religions are false and that Jesus approved them alone in 1919. I'm sure other religions have sincere adherents too, yet the Watchtower condemns then to eternal destruction.

  On what basis did Jesus decide that the lies of the Watchtower were good, while the lies of other religions were bad?

  If falshood and error is acceptable within the Watchtower, why is it not acceptable within the Catholic and other religions? When other religions teach errors the Watchtower calls them "False Religion", or "Babylon the Great", and say's they're "worshipping Satan." When the Watchtower teaches errors they say the "light's getting brighter".

  Walter