Judge orders removal of "evolution disclaimer" stickers in Georgia, USA

by seattleniceguy 72 Replies latest social current

  • seattleniceguy

    Thank goodness, a judge with some sense!

    Here's a quote:

    But the judge disagreed: "While evolution is subject to criticism, particularly with respect to the mechanism by which it occurred, the sticker misleads students regarding the significance and value of evolution in the scientific community." [emphasis mine]

    This underscores the reality that the fact of evolution is not really in question. The theories that people talk about are in regard to the precise mechanisms by which things evolve.

    Here's the entire article:

  • William Penwell
    William Penwell

    Someone with some common sense.


  • aniron
    This underscores the reality that the fact of evolution is not really in question

    Can you demonstrate this "fact" by scientific observation, testing, and examination. Can you set up and experiment to show it occurs?

    When I was a JW I gave my lecturer in biology at university the "Creation book" by the Watchtower, he was agnostic.

    He returned it with the note that never in his career has he ever taught evolution as a "fact" that until it can be proven by scientific analysis, it will always remain a "theory".

  • Simon

    I think you are showing your ignorance of the word "theory" in respect to science.

    Things are still called "theory" long after they are established fact such as the theory of gravity, Einsteins general theory of relativity and so on.

    It has way more proof than the bible and creation so live with it.

  • Lostreality

    I think they are refering to "theory" in a PC way. In order not to be called on it, IF said facts are taken into question. Evolution is much more believable than creation.

  • upside/down

    just more opportunity for lawyers to make bank or become famous....

    "Live with it"--- ouch! Now that is a very dogmatic statement from the powers that be (reprecussions I'm sure will follow).

    Someone obviously has an opinion!

  • AlanF

    Good deal by the judge!

    aniron, you need to learn what scientists mean when they say that evolution is a fact. Careful scientists distinguish between evolution and origin of life ideas. The origin of life, or abiogenesis, is not part of evolution as it's normally defined in science. Evolution, as Darwin himself was careful to state, is concerned only with what happened with life after its origin. Of course, lots of people, including incautious scientists, often lump evolution and abiogenesis together, but that's more of a philosophical or even metaphysical discussion. One needs to understand these things before one simply says, "evolution is not a fact!" or one risks looking like a dummy.

    Evolution in the careful sense simply means that the paleontological record shows that life has changed over time. That is a fact, and it's a fact in the same sense that gravity is a fact, that electromagnetism is a fact, and that the claim that human history has evolved is a fact. People might argue about the mechanisms or underlying causes for these things, but such arguments are not relevant to the basic facts. And of course, when careful scientists say "fact", they don't mean in a completely absolute sense, but in the sense of a generally accepted observation, or as Webster's defines it, "a piece of information presented as having objective reality." Some people don't accept such facts, despite overwhelming evidence. Flat-Earthers are a good example.

    Stephen Jay Gould gave an excellent point of view on the difference between fact and theory as regards evolution:

    In the American vernacular, "theory" often means "imperfect fact" -- part of a hierarchy of confidence running downhill from fact to theory to hypothesis to guess. Thus the power of the creationist argument: evolution is "only" a theory and intense debate now rages about many aspects of the theory. If evolution is worse than a fact, and scientists can't even make up their minds about the theory, then what confidence can we have in it? Indeed, President Reagan echoed this argument before an evangelical group in Dallas when he said (in what I devoutly hope was campaign rhetoric): "Well it is a theory. It is a scientific theory only, and it has in recent years been challenged in the world of science -- that is, not believed in the scientific community to be as infallible as it once was."
    Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape-like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered.
    Moreover, "fact" doesn't mean "absolute certainty"; there ain't no such animal in an exciting and complex world. The final proofs of logic and mathematics flow deductively from stated premises and achieve certainty only because they are not about the empirical world. Evolutionists make no claim for perpetual truth, though creationists often do (and then attack us for a style of argument that they themselves favor). In science, "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent." I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms.

    You can read a lot more on this here: http://www.geocities.com/osarsif/ce09.htm

    Now, is it a fact that evolution has occurred? Sure! Only young-earth creationists dispute this, based not on science but on their sectarian interpretation of Genesis. I won't attempt to convince anyone about this here, but there are plenty of good, solid references that will convince anyone besides YECs.


  • seattleniceguy


    Can you demonstrate this "fact" by scientific observation, testing, and examination.

    Yes. Evolution is both a theory and a fact. The fact that biological organisms change over time has been both directly and indirectly observed. For more information, see the following links:


    What is in debate is not that evolution occurs. The question is how does it occur? Under what conditions is it more likely to occur? Why does it sometimes happen faster than other times?

    Also, experiments can be devised to test these questions. If you read for a while on the talkorigins site, you'll find a lot of great information on that topic.


  • upside/down

    aniron- here you will truly find "tough love".

    Don't get discouraged.... taste, chew, digest ... GROW!


  • Valis

    eh, why do viruses not die after repeated use of the same medications? Because they adapt which=evolution. simple simple simple..


    District Overbeer

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