Some people followed Jehovah's Organization, and God killed 'em

by AlmostAtheist 23 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • AlmostAtheist

    Gina and I were batting around how the organization calls itself "God's Channel" out of one side of their mouth and then reminds everyone that they are "imperfect men" out of the other. This allows them to claim a position of authority as "God's Organization" while at the same time allowing them to make mistakes and get away with it. (1975, "generation", all the flavors of blood, etc)

    Exodus 32 describes the golden calf incident. Aaron built the calf, erected the altar, and called for a worship service at a specific time and place. Aaron -- in Moses' abscence -- was the "visible organization" of that time. So "God's organization" of that time called for something that God himself would not approve of. Would the people that obeyed the organization be acceptable to God, even though they were doing what was wrong? What was important, following the "right" course, or following the direction of God's visible organization?

    You know how this turned out. The people were punished with sword and plague for "their" sin, when in fact they were only following the direction of the organization. (Never mind for the moment, that Aaron got a free ride on this one. [Maybe he had a Get Out of Hell Free card?])

    So what of today? Wouldn't God hold people responsible for doing something wrong, even if God's organization said it was right? I'm thinking here of the blood issue, allowing God's servants to die at the direction of the organization, when the "right" thing to do would be to preserve life.

    This is an academic point, of course. Dubs aren't going to change their view of the "Slave Class", and we'll still get DF'd for holding our "apostate" views. But just for discussion's sake, what do you think?


  • seattleniceguy

    Excellent point, Dave!

    I think the leading question into that discussion would be:

    We agree that God's organization sometimes makes mistakes. Do you think Jehovah would ever hold people accountable for following his visible organization, if that organization held incorrect views at the time?

    Most dubs would answer, No, God expects us to follow his organization, even if they are wrong.

    Imagine their surprise when you show them proof that God actually destroyed people for following his organization! That's a pretty damn strong argument. Nice work, Dave!


  • Leolaia

    Interesting example. I think others could be found too.

    The kings of Israel and Judah would have been, by the WTS' definition, "God's earthly organization," as they administered his kingdom before Nebuchadnezzer cut it down in 607 BCE and began the seven Gentile times (according to the WTS). Yet they frequently became apostate, according to the version of history in 1-2 Kings, and God took out his judgment on them (on more than one occasion).

  • Aude_Sapere

    It is dangerous to have Blind Faith.

    Each of us must use our God-Given(??) minds and consciences. I am looking forward to seeing how this thread develops. I remember trying to have this conversation on a few occasions when I still active. Never got to the level of discussion that I wanted.

    SNG - Yup. Right on. That is the response I got.

    When the time finally came that I did not agree what was preached from the platform and practiced by the members, I could no longer participate or associate with those people. I could not believe that I was even considering leaving Jehovah's organization but in my own Crisis of Conscience inately knew that I needed to distance myself.

    I remember walking out of the hall, my brain numb. I knew I was done. I didn't know where I was going but I knew I would not be back in the Kingdom Hall any time soon. My prayer to Jehovah was very simple. Jehovah - you know my heart. You know this pains me. I don't want to leave but I cannot stay. You know more than I can express. You know even more than I do why I cannot be here.

    My own JW Bible-trained conscience told me what was right. I had not been in contact with apostates. Never read apostate literature.

    My trust in Jehovah's ability to read my heart and understand me more than I understood myself allowed me to take the time I needed to make decisions regarding what actions and stands I would make. In so many ways, my very life and the lives of the children in my care depended on it.

  • Pole

    What I don't like about the golden calf story is that Aaron got away with taking lead in the "false worship" thing. I mean this conformist bastard didn't even get "publicly reproved" by Moses, or did he?

    I hope it's not supposed to mean that Jehoovah will go easy on the evil slave class for fooling millions of dubs :-).


  • Midget-Sasquatch

    JDubby mode:ON

    Well it was the nagging of the people that made Aaron cave in and then they all apostasized together. He wasn't forcing a new God onto them and was a bullied into being a sort of wicked slave. Moses was still the rightful earthly lead of Big J's org. Neener Neener Neener

    I still haven't gotten word on how to refute those examples of the Judean Kings. But, fear not, the light shall shine brighter very shortly.

    JDubby mode:OFF

  • Hondo


    Jerusalem was destroyed in 586BCE not 607BCE. History, in any book that I have read, is very clear on this. Mayby I'm wrong on this, but I've yet to find, or let alone, read a clear and concise justification as to why JW's use 607. As a result, it appears their current, and in apparent total error, doctrinal/belief timeline is way off center, and as a result, their 1914 date is suspect, or in my view totally wrong, along with many of their other contempory teachings (lies?) that are based on the year 607 as the year Jerusalem was destroyed.

  • Midget-Sasquatch

    I think my mistaken exposure to the meeting yesterday has brought up some pernicious "code" in my head....must resist...oh no! :


    Brother....friend....may I suggest you read the insightful information found in Let Your Kingdom Come -Appendix to Chapter 14. The different lines of secular evidence for 586 are discussed and shown to be less solid than critics would wish you to believe. Never mind the thousands of contemporary documents that don't show any missing 20 years...there was a very effective Seleucid conspiracy to mess with the records. So Trust in Borg.

    This board is sooo therapeutic.

  • AlmostAtheist
    Well it was the nagging of the people that made Aaron cave in

    So... if we all wrote into the Watchtower and demanded to be able to commit fornication, they'd eventually cave in and let us do it? Even sanction it? Set up a time and a place for it? Call it a "festival to Jehovah"?

    No, surely not. The GB is probably much stronger than Aaron was.

    Imagine Israel at the time. Not ALL the Israelites were pro-golden-calf. But when Aaron built one, built an altar, called for a festival to it, wouldn't you imagine that some that had not previously wanted the calf now accepted it? Imagine what was on their mind as they saw their brother's sword coming at them and caught sight of Aaron -- alive and well. "Curse you, Aaron! I trusted you!!"

    (The fact that Aaron got away with it has been addressed by the Watchtower at some point, I remember reading it. I also remember -- even as a Dub -- thinking the explanation was very weak.)


  • Midget-Sasquatch


    Tis true the dubby "answer" spewed was weak, in fact twas all tongue in cheek.

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