Am I part of the problem? No. Your assumption is that anyone who complains about the WT yet doesn't do anything to provide an alternative, or stop their activities is just as bad as the org is. I feel that the whole premise is ridiculous. It's like saying that if you acknowlege the fact that crack cocaine is bad and cause problems for society then you have a moral obligation to either sucessfully rehabilitate the addicts or physically stop the gangs that are selling it otherwise you're no better than a crack dealer is. It's not that black or white by a long shot.
Are you part of the problem?
by one 29 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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one
HS,
It would help a lot if you actually read peoples posts a little more carefully.
I appreciate your advice, which could be obvious and appreciated even more if you prove it
I did not speak of 'many nation'. I spoke of Democratic nations who have a First Amendment type of law written in their consitution and made that very clear in my post.
but my topic is about a global org and I
stick to itNot a relevant argument. That people do not implement, or chose to break Laws does not invalidate the effect of these Laws, especially in the long-term.
"Effect"? what effect? I look for a quick net result, there are moral laws too which arec"accepted" by most "citizens" but we still have millenary problems, which this topic is just trying to analyzed on a historical, empirical basis.
Just because criminals continue to comit crimes, does *not* invalidate laws.sure but applying effectively to organized crime has proven inefficent, in some cases just like if laws hey don't exist,
WT covered phedophlia,.who has won a real case of so many perpetrated?
Only after victims become adults is when some noise is raised, that's it.
This attitude completely ignores the tremendous social progresses made in the democratic nations the past three-hundred years.
Relatively speaking there more corrupted org now than ever before, moral corruption is more widespread, i have clearly witnesed at all levels.
There are corrup org whose only purpose is to teach individuals and org how to be corrupt.
You underestimate the will of the people. When galvanized into action, the people wield a very powerful influence, both on Government and Law
In one of the most democratic countries it could not be "galvanized" to prevent Bush back in power. All along I have taking about.reality, real proposals, not idealistic.future that never appears.
Remember "galvanized" action against Vietnam"?, now we have Irak and others, which have people, "citizens" shaking their heads all over.
Politicians are more accountable to the people in the democratic nations, than at any other time in human history.
It is just a revolving door, politician going in and out, but situation is the same, even more dangerous (911)
Yes he does One. Do some research.I cant "research" his (Bush) inner mind.
AND if he is still president is just because "citizens" could not do anything about it.
Almost half the nation did not want this President
is that the majority of "ctizens"?, a country "deserve" what the majority choose.
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one
What_truth,
just as bad as the org is
that is going too far.
you have a moral obligation to either sucessfully rehabilitate the addicts or physically stop the gangs that are selling
collectively speaking yes, accordingly our representatives in gov "seem" like they try
it otherwise you're no better than a crack dealer is
That's going too far.
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hillary_step
One,
You are an idiot. Sorry, I tried to think of a less offensive way to let you know, but could not. I thought of saying, 'Good poiunt Brother, but have you ever thought about it from this angle", but thought the deja-vu too much for mortals to bear.
You wrote :
It would help a lot if you actually read peoples posts a little more carefully. I appreciate your advice, which could be obvious and appreciated even more if you prove it
Okay stupid I will. I wrote :
Religions of all varieties, from the benign to the dangerous have been tolerated by the majority of Democratic nations with little monitoring as to their cause and effect on society at large.
This toleration is often due to the thinking that so closely attaches a person?s right to worship with the very concept of democracy. The legal systems are often fearful of even stepping into court with religions as they know that they stand a good chance of stepping all over the First Amendment and the equivalent of such that most democratic nations are rightly proud to cherish
You wrote :
Not really, in many many nations is totally the opposite.
Not really, global perspective, democracy is not practiced everywhere, not even by those nations that claim to be democratic.
Can you see just how muddled your thinking is One, or can you not?
In your openening post you speak in terms of the Governing Body of Jehovah?s Witnesses who are based in a democratic nation and wondering as to what can achieve change within them, and suddenly in your second post switch to a ?global perspective?. Are you now wondering how the GB can be influenced legally from a 'global perspective'....lol
This is your original post which I make not apologies in quoting in full. My first posts answers all your points and is all I have to say :
If we are so concerned about the wt and know the role organizations play in our sociaty,
then with moral responsability we should be able to provide a complete real answer instead of just complaint about the WT, if we can't then...
Lets assume you are a GB member and your proposal (complete real answer) has the chance of being approved.
What would you suggest, generally speaking, i don't think anyone is able to come up with a new set of fail proof, proven doctrines.
What should be told, regarding major doctrines what should jw beleive, what should they do and expect from now on.
Have in mind that discarding 1914 will have other implications such as on the FDS doctrine.
Do you have experience runniing a major corporation?
What do you think will be the implications of implementing your suggestions? Think about the collective and think also in legal, moral, religious and economic terms. Will it create other problems?
Will you suggestion expose the org to legal cases? do we have insurance to cover potential damages?
What the role of the GB will be?, those are the question that quickly come up.
You make no mention of a global perspective. Why did you suddenly change the goalposts? Learn to debate properly and stop wasting my time. You are all over the place in your thinking. Your arguments are pap. You need to read a lot more and speak a lot less, then perhaps you might present some sort of argument that shows that somewhere along the way you even understand your own points!
I cant "research" his (Bush) inner mind.
I did not ask you to research the 'inner mind' of President Bush. I asked you to research his religious beliefs which are a matter of public record. Or were you not aware of that?
Best regards - HS
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one
HS"prove it", two word i pronounced that can really stimulate...
You are an idiot. Sorry, I tried to think of a less offensive way to let you know, .
Okay stupid I will.
I really appreciate when someone speak his mind, rather than make me beleive something else.: .
but thought the deja-vu too much for mortals to bear.
our strengh is shown by not going into PTSD by any kind of deja-vu, to me the word "brother" can even be appreciated depending on the motive, not the individual..
You make no mention of a global perspective.
"global is obviously implied, the proposal would affect a global community, in fact this forum inmersed in GB discussion is a global community. People who were/are affected by the GB.
On the other hand the fact that WT headquoters is located in the usa does not mean the proposal has to rely or based on usa laws, or law of any particular country. You very well know that the WT has legal cases going in countries all over the "globe", each with their own laws
Otherwise laws will have to determine if a religious "doctrine is "legal". How is a law to prohibit beleiving in 1914 or the FDS?, perhaps blood doctrine yes.
Not only that, BUT WT is prepared to run their programs from many countries and in most countries not matter the circunstances, as proven by Cuba, just 90 miles away from the usa, whose WT branch ties were severed and members monitored. .
Around 1918 WT directors were sent to Jail, based on usa Law. What's more they are fully prepare to deal with gov laws and pressure, they will claim it is Satan and grow in numbers even more.
Learn to debate properly and stop wasting my time
I did not ask nor want to debate for the sake of debating, i mainly asked simple questions which were not answered, except by NARk.
Since i was considered idiot and stupid this later reply may sound idiot and stupid, but i am tired tha's the best i can do right now, i need a beer .
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Earnest
I am all for nihilsim, it is very poetic, but reality is much more sensible when arguing such issues. Read some books on political and social history since the middle ages. Look at the changes for the better made in society. It is the people who have wrought change.
HS,
You make a good point, brother, but have you thought about it from this angle ? Religion and government have counter-balanced each other since time immemorial. At times religion held the power, at other times government did, but more often than not both forms of power used the other to shore up its own foundation. My observations are that when the prevailing philosophy becomes too secular (or too religious) there is a pendulum effect and the more extreme the move, the more extreme the reaction. It may be possible to do away with religion by indoctrination, as was practised by Maoist China...but my limited understanding of Eastern religion and culture makes me doubt this could happen in the egocentric West. While there is no doubt that religion has often been to the detriment of man, it has also provided motivation for a great deal of good. In the long term I think it will always be with us as a force to be reckoned with and so reform must come from within.
Earnest
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hillary_step
Earnest,
Religion and government have counter-balanced each other since time immemorial. At times religion held the power, at other times government did, but more often than not both forms of power used the other to shore up its own foundation. My observations are that when the prevailing philosophy becomes too secular (or too religious) there is a pendulum effect and the more extreme the move, the more extreme the reaction. It may be possible to do away with religion by indoctrination, as was practised by Maoist China...but my limited understanding of Eastern religion and culture makes me doubt this could happen in the egocentric West. While there is no doubt that religion has often been to the detriment of man, it has also provided motivation for a great deal of good. In the long term I think it will always be with us as a force to be reckoned with and so reform must come from within.
An excellent observation and one that I could not have explained better myself.
I am opposed to the idea of trying to dismantle or ban *any* religion. The reality is that *all* religion globally and historically has added dimensions to society that it can ill afford to lose. I do believe though that religions should come under the rule of law just as does every other corporation. When it works outside the rule of law it is at such times that it does indeed alter the balance of society in ways that begin to harm society. I believe that history will show this the present US administration for example, is one such situation.
I believe that religions, like doctors, should all be licensed. the time has come that each pastor, preacher, priest and canon should pass examinations proving their competency to deal with peoples lives. They should be held personally accountable for their failures and rewarded for all their successes.
Best regards - HS
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hillary_step
One,
I did not ask nor want to debate for the sake of debating, i mainly asked simple questions which were not answered, except by NARk.
I answered the questions you posed in your opening post in my own first post. You obviously did not understand or did not read my reply.
Best regards - HS
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Norm
A perfect discription of the conditions in the country I live in. Freedom of religion must be one of the most abused freedoms guaranteed by most democracies. Various churches has taken that to extremes and I will say that it for all intent and pupose freedom of religion amount to a license to kill.
Norm
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codeblue
The answer is that NOBODY should let it play a role in society.
When the WTBS sees that it has no power on anybody...............it will die.
It is gradually loosing its power....that's why they tell their members to NOT look at the internet or other books or college.