Are you part of the problem?

by one 29 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

AlanF

One said:
: "disband" "That which is crooked cannot be made straight" "corrupt nature of the core"
: "corrupt nature of the core" is everywhere, should the same solution be applied?
Of course. Why make an exception?
: What about the catholic church and a few others nonreligous like Eron, Adelphia, Investment corp in wall st, totally corrupt nations etc.
Them too. The Bush administration too.
: Such a "proposal" is similar to WT solutions
Reform of many organizations is impossible. Reform of many corrupt people is impossible. While you can't reform irreformable people, you can certainly "reform" corrupt organizations right out of existence. The alternative -- to leave them be to continue hurting people, is a bad solution.
I'm not saying that anyone might actually be able to reform such groups; only that, in principle, it's the right thing.
: except they feel dont belong to the "corrupt" groups.
Self-deception at its worst.
: Satan and co. has not been "disbanded" could be argued.
I don't believe in Satan.
:: a core doctrine, which I call The Fundamental Doctrine of Jehovah's Witnesses, that puts them in between their God and the JW community
: The Pope is "Infallible" (god), he and the church promise "hell" (fear) for the infidel. Divorce is not possible, comdoms are banned.
But most Catholics ignore such nonsense with impunity. The Church, over the centuries, has been forced to become a kinder and gentler thing. But I'd still love to see it disbanded.
: At some point back in relatively recent history, they even killed (what could be worst?) infidels just like the WT would like to do.
And given half a chance, they'd probably do it again. That's why I'd like to see all religions disbanded.
: Despite outcry by extremist, even atheist governments have found counterproductive to "disband" or totally eliminate those "corrupt" religions,
Sure, because they couldn't reform the religious people who kept the traditions alive despite the bans.
: (until now) they did managed to "disband' what they considered "corrupt" corporations and paid a price which they considere they could afford.
What?
AlanF
one

Alan,
I agree 200% with your latest reply.
BUT due to the small probability of implementing such "solution", i am asking for traditional "solutions"
What?

yeah my "happy fingers" and reluctancy to proofread:
I edited the last parragraph
hillary_step

One,
Religions of all varieties, from the benign to the dangerous have been tolerated by the majority of Democratic nations with little monitoring as to their cause and effect on society at large.
This toleration is often due to the thinking that so closely attaches a persons right to worship with the very concept of democracy. The legal systems are often fearful of even stepping into court with religions as they know that they stand a good chance of stepping all over the First Amendment and the equivalent of such that most democratic nations are rightly proud to cherish.
However, all other social structures within these nations are closely monitored to ensure that they do not damage the nations individual citizens, and that if do there are laws to attend to them and bring them to book. Religions have side-stepped this legal process and have hidden behind the First Amendment peversely using it for a purpose never intended. The WTS is merely one religion that has so used the First Amendment to protect itself from punishment when their behavior has damaged individuals.
What can be done? I believe that *all* religions should be taxed - every one of them - they are after all businesses at their core. I believe that all religions should be licensed by the government on a yearly basis and that their licenses may be revoked if complaints of a found nature are levied against that religion. I believe that all religions, like all other legal corporations, should be regularly monitored by the government to ensure that no harm comes to their adherents. I believe, finally, that all religions should be insured and that an easier path should be allowed to compensate victims when harm can be proved.
I also believe that President Bush should come clean and admit that he is a YEC and that he believes that the earth was created in six literal days and that the chances of him agreeing to my proposals are skinny to nil.
Best regards - HS
Narkissos

What about a facetious closure?
Publish grossly eccentric (although Bible-based) "new lights" in every issue of the Watchtower, requiring publishers to do very silly (although not harmful) things in their communities; when the numbers have dropped sufficiently, use the Society's funds to pay for the psychiatric treatment of the last few unconditional adepts...
one

Alan,
wait one more thing
Reform of many organizations is impossible. Reform of many corrupt people is impossible. While you can't reform irreformable people, you can certainly "reform" corrupt organizations right out of existence. The alternative -- to leave them be to continue hurting people, is a bad solution.
Sure, because they couldn't reform the religious people who kept the traditions alive despite the bans.
That's to show that people can hardly be reformed, corrupt or not, even by a determined gov.
AND since real people are supporting such "corrupt" organizations, by negligence, inability to think or intentionally, the "proposal" is similar to "survival of the fittest", actually the ideal antidote or counterfight. Obviously until now the "corrupt" ARE the "fittest"
one

HS,
with little monitoring as to their cause and effect on society at large.

Not really, in many many nations is totally the opposite.
This toleration is often due to the thinking that so closely attaches a persons right to worship with the very concept of democracy

Not really, global perspective, democracy is not practiced everywhere, not even by those nations that claim to be democratic.
However, all other social structures within these nations are closely monitored to ensure that they do not damage the nations individual citizens, and that if do there are laws to attend to them and bring them to book.

laws = toilet paper in many cases
"ensure"? sure commercialized children porn has been elimitated, IE is free from hackers...
Heck even "decent" gov look to the other side when drug deals are ruining "the nations individual citizens" and the whole country.
How much must a gov invest to eliminate such "coruupt' org?
200 billion, such as invested in irak? or 25 millions such as invested in South Asia?
hidden behind the First Amendment peversely using it for a purpose never intended.

they are smater and "fittest"
What can be done? I believe that *all* religions should be taxed - every one of them - they are after all businesses at their core. I believe that all religions should be licensed by the government on a yearly basis and that their licenses may be revoked if complaints of a found nature are levied against that religion. I believe that all religions, like all other legal corporations, should be regularly monitored by the government to ensure that no harm comes to their adherents. I believe, finally, that all religions should be insured and that an easier path should be allowed to compensate victims when harm can be proved.

your proposal, for the usa and many countries required a "reform" to the constitution, how probable is it?
your proposal rely too much on the gov and little on citicens iniciative, crime can not be stopped without citizens initiciative and of course support from the gov they elect.
In fact lack of citizenz iniciative is what keep corrupt religions alive despite some gov intentions, so people not only deserve the gov they got but also the religion that exploit them.
Individuals who try to initiate a civic movement to eliminate corruption of any kind find litle support from "citizens"
You finally bring bush into the picture but any nation deserve its president.
AND did you say come clean?, I doubt Bush beleives what you think he beleives, he is smart and one the "fittest"
Lets face reality and propose tradicional solutions until "citizens" become more educated and brave.
What would you do if you were a GB member with probability to implement a real proposal?
one

And the winner is..
Nark
who stayed in line with the initial questions
Publish grossly eccentric (although Bible-based) "new lights" in every issue of the Watchtower, requiring publishers to do very silly (although not harmful) things in their communities; when the numbers have dropped sufficiently, use the Society's funds to pay for the psychiatric treatment of the last few unconditional adepts...

LOL, really i like that one,
what about any court cases that may come up? you propose damage control and any insurance available?
A Paduan

then with moral responsability we should be able to provide a complete real answer instead of just complaint about the WT, if we can't then...

What would you suggest, generally speaking, i don't think anyone is able to come up with a new set of fail proof, proven doctrines.

I have a real answer, for me that is - although I could talk to jws 'til I was blue in the face, they wouldn't know what I was saying - and indeed if by chance they caught a glimpse of it, they'd likely run away from it - and who am I that I should impose my will upon others.
If someone wants to be a jw, that's their choice - but I do believe that anyone has a right to realise they are being lied to (and a right to not know it if they choose so).
However, I also believe that everyone has the right to not be lied to, blackmailed and coerced with fear at their own door - which is why I am against them wnd seek to expose them - they can't / won't keep to themselves with their lies.
one

Quenn,
What about answering the question in the "subject", if your answer is negative, elaborate your reason.
If the roof on a very expensive building, where some seek refuge from strong wind, is leaking water from the roof (as it is happening in all other buildings around), what is to be gain by just complaining about the cause. The real cause being several, lets say, corrupt roofing corp whose original owners are either dead or about to die..
hillary_step

One,
It would help a lot if you actually read peoples posts a little more carefully.
with little monitoring as to their cause and effect on society at large.

Not really, in many many nations is totally the opposite.
I did not speak of 'many nation'. I spoke of Democratic nations who have a First Amendment type of law written in their consitution and made that very clear in my post.
This toleration is often due to the thinking that so closely attaches a persons right to worship with the very concept of democracy

Not really, global perspective, democracy is not practiced everywhere, not even by those nations that claim to be democratic.
Please read my comments above.
However, all other social structures within these nations are closely monitored to ensure that they do not damage the nations individual citizens, and that if do there are laws to attend to them and bring them to book.

laws = toilet paper in many cases
Not a relevant argument. That people do not implement, or chose to break Laws does not invalidate the effect of these Laws, especially in the long-term.
"ensure"? sure commercialized children porn has been elimitated, IE is free from hackers...
It has not been eliminated, but each day child-pornographers, and hackers are bought to book. When a Law is broken, the legal system acts and *continues* to act as long as that law is in effect and as long as criminals seek to circumnavigate these Laws.
Heck even "decent" gov look to the other side when drug deals are ruining "the nations individual citizens" and the whole country. How much must a gov invest to eliminate such "coruupt' org? 200 billion, such as invested in irak? or 25 millions such as invested in South Asia?
A completely irrelevant argument again. Just because political corruption exists, does *not* invalidate Laws. Just because criminals continue to comit crimes, does *not* invalidate laws.
hidden behind the First Amendment peversely using it for a purpose never intended.

they are smater and "fittest"
Only because they have a temporary protection afforded to them by courts who are loathe to deal with First Amendment issues. This will not last for ever. I do not wish to be rude, but you sound like a JW talking about how awful the world is, how it can't go on much longer, how the only person who can sort this mess out is God. This attitude completely ignores the tremendous social progresses made in the democratic nations the past three-hundred years.
What can be done? I believe that *all* religions should be taxed - every one of them - they are after all businesses at their core. I believe that all religions should be licensed by the government on a yearly basis and that their licenses may be revoked if complaints of a found nature are levied against that religion. I believe that all religions, like all other legal corporations, should be regularly monitored by the government to ensure that no harm comes to their adherents. I believe, finally, that all religions should be insured and that an easier path should be allowed to compensate victims when harm can be proved.

your proposal, for the usa and many countries required a "reform" to the constitution, how probable is it?

I do not just think is probable, I think it will happen within the next decade.
your proposal rely too much on the gov and little on citicens iniciative, crime can not be stopped without citizens initiciative and of course support from the gov they elect.
You underestimate the will of the people. When galvanized into action, the people wield a very powerful influence, both on Government and Law.
In fact lack of citizenz iniciative is what keep corrupt religions alive despite some gov intentions, so people not only deserve the gov they got but also the religion that exploit them.
I am all for nihilsim, it is very poetic, but reality is much more sensible when arguing such issues. Read some books on political and social history since the middle ages. Look at the changes for the better made in society. It is the people who have wrought change.
Individuals who try to initiate a civic movement to eliminate corruption of any kind find litle support from "citizens"

Nonesense, straight from the Watchtower! Your comment flies in the face of social changes even made the past two decades. Politicians are more accountable to the people in the democratic nations, than at any other time in human history.
You finally bring bush into the picture but any nation deserve its president.
Nonesense. Almost half the nation did not want this President. What say you for them? Your attitudes would keep us all the prisoners of the past, not the custodians of the future.
AND did you say come clean?, I doubt Bush beleives what you think he beleives,

Yes he does One. Do some research. HS

Are you part of the problem?

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