To those that believe in a god; Please help me believe

by AlmostAtheist 83 Replies latest jw friends

  • AlmostAtheist

    A few of you have mentioned Lee Strobel's "The Case for [Christ|God|Creator|The Bible]". I have read as much as I could stand of The Case For God and a few seconds of The Case For Christ. I really couldn't stomach the guy. (I felt the same way about Dan Barker and his "Losing Faith in Faith" book) He came off as a phony to me, like he was trying to sound unbiased, when he obviously was biased. It would have been better if he'd said honestly, "I believe and here's why" instead of "Maybe I believe and maybe I don't, let's consider the evidence together." This discussion -- the honesty of all of you -- has done much more for my forming an opinion than Strobel's stuff could ever do.

    If I understand the concensus here, God is not to be found on a chalkboard of figures or in some overwhelming body of evidence. God reveals himself in hints and ambiguous evidence that if taken as a whole -- and on the "god exists" side -- points to his existence. Moreover, once you make the "leap of faith" to give this evidence the benefit of a doubt, God himself personally acknowledges his existence to you in some immaterial, unexplainable way. You get the "Jesus in your heart" feeling, and you just "know" he exists. Further, many of you say you've gone through atheism on your way to your current destination, which is some form of belief or another.

    As you've all acknowledged, you haven't convinced me. But you've at least convinced me that there's a discussion to be had. It isn't closed. And never will be.

    I come away feeling like I got my answer, and for that I thank you. All of you. (Even Logan ;-) )


  • SixofNine

    You're a good guy Gumby. You ask, nay DEMAND, that god be there for everyone else, if he's going to be there for you. That's only logical, and only fair. It's been a pleasure watching you grow self-assured in insisting on simple love and justice these past few years.

  • gumby

    Thanks sixer...that was nice. You have been one of the ones that helped me alot.....specially when I was a christian.


  • mama

    Hi I read your post and as this is my first post I'll try not to be too long winded. The thing that makes me believe first and foremost that God, Jehovah or what you choose to call Him exists was when I was down on my knees praying and crying for Him to tell me if staying in "the truth" was the right way, He answered my prayers. One thing after another happened, exposing the lies I had been taught my whole life. I believe it was God who guided me away from it. I am not telling you this to convert you to my point of view, you have to decide for yourself. I recently went to a modern baptist church, I was very apprehensive about going, I had a lifetime of being spiritually trodden on but to my shock, I loved it! Not saying I would ever become a church member, my relationship with God is between me and him, not a building. I was moved to tears ( I know I sound sappy, but I was) when my daughters, 4 and 6 came out of the daycare (like sunday school) and my 4 year old said mommy I love church but I hate the meetings. No wonder, if I was halled in the back of the kingdom hell and spanked because I couldn't sit still for 2 freakin hours, I'd hate it to. Actually come to think of it I was! Regularly. It is the biggest shame of my life that I put my kids through that. We have been out for 2 years but they still remember all too well. Anyway, back to the point, I feel that it was God who led me out of that un-Christlike org. My family is in it, my husband's family too and it was God giving me the strength to leave. But that's my faith, you have to decide what you believe. All I can advise is figure out, are you basing your opions on the God the witnesses teach or the God of the bible, they aren't the same. I have had a couple friends who left too and at the time they had alot of anger towards God because they felt, well, if he's going to kill me at A, then forget him. But they later changed their minds when they realized that He isn't the guy getting PR from the JWs, that He loves us and forgives us.After all if he doesn't what was the point of Jesus coming down here at all? If you don't believe the bible then its kind of hard to believe in God but keep in mind that we, none of us, knows how much of the bible cannons have been accurately translated, what ones haven't been included and what every scriptual interpertation is, so the best we can do is make evaluated guesses and decide the best course of us as individuals cause really you take alot on faith or you don't. Best of luck with your search and I hope you find the peace of mind that is yours and yours alone. P.S. I guess I was longwinded, sorry, blame it on my education! lol

  • wednesday


    I enjoyed your post very much. Happy u have been set free and are able now to look for spirituality wherever u find it. U seem to have very reasonable logic.

  • Unfettered

    I'll offer my current beliefs based on personal experience gained through meditation, out of body experiences, higher states of consciousness and interactions with other beings operating at higher states of consciousness in relation to humans.

    I don't expect anyone here to believe or accept my experiences or to completely understand the information. I offer it as only an idea to think about. I agree with a previous post in that personal experience is essential to any "belief" and/or true knowledge. The only way to truly know is to experience and this is indeed in part our purpose for existing in this "simulated" reality environment we call human existence on earth. So, here's the lowdown from my point of view in as simplistic terms as possible.

    There is a God or Super consciousness. This super consciousness was not necessarily intelligent or all knowing in human terms in the beginning. In a sense it was all knowing because nothing else existed thus there wasn't much to know anyway. This consciousness or force had the ability to choose. Rather than remaining inert it chose to ACT or change itself. We are talking in very simplistic terms but perhaps this consciousness indeed started very simply.

    This force had nothing with which to compare itself or use as a reference so it decided to create the illusion of self division? yet not being truly divided. Imagine taking a long balloon the clowns use at parties to make balloon animals etc. You can twist parts of the balloon to make separate sections of self-contained air pockets or segments. However, these segments are still connected and make up the whole balloon? there is no true pure division, but a portion of the essence of the balloon does appear separate namely the air inside each pocket or segment as the balloon is twisted and manipulated? the illusion of division is created through manipulation of the thing itself.

    Once this force or consciousness began to divide itself into individual fully conscious segments it could now use these other segments as points of reference. This act of division was really the first act of creation, evolution, and ?thought? or conception. These seemingly individual segmented consciousnesses began to interact with one another and explore their own existence in relation to one another. They also began to explore the various new and interesting ways that they could twist and change their own internal essence to cause more internal divisions within themselves.

    This process of inner division gave rise to internal dynamics we might call laws. With each new twisting and changing these consciousnesses gained in complexity and began to ?learn? and ?grow? and through their own internal interaction as well as their interactions with each other began to actually become more intelligent and ?self-aware?. They were literally growing and evolving as they experimented with inner change and external interaction.

    Since none of these consciousnesses is ever truly completely divided from the rest (they all still being connected), the original consciousness still existed, but was now much more than it was originally. It was growing internally and gaining complexity and intelligence, knowledge, and awareness. Since all the individual consciousnesses were all connected they found they could communicate and in fact shift their points of awareness into other consciousness segments so that they could change their ?point of view? so to speak. For example, when you look through a pair of binoculars you zoom in on a particular area far away to the complete visual exclusion of most objects that are near to you. However, when you put the binoculars away from your eyes you now can see the whole picture of what?s near and far in one shot. So, this consciousness found that things could be experienced both through the perception of individual segments at a microscopic level, and also from the super conscious at the macroscopic level. These consciousnesses gave rise to the creation of literally millions of universes, galaxies, solar systems, planets, and life forms.

    Every ?segment? of energy that exists is literally a form of conscious energy. When certain forms of energy come together in the appropriate complexity higher levels of intelligence and self-awareness are expressed and experienced. For example, the energy that makes up the molecules that make up an individual cell in your body is a form of consciousness. That cell has a lower form of consciousness than the form of consciousness that you perceive from the macroscopic view of being the ?god? of your whole body. Yet, each cell of your body IS you and makes up a portion of your collective consciousness. Just like ?god?, you have the ability to ?shift? the focus of your consciousness from being macroscopic to that of a more microscopic level.

    A simple verification of this is easy for you to try. Sit down and try to ?feel? your entire body. After doing that a few moment next try to focus your attention on ?feeling? your left big toe and ONLY your left big toe. Try to get as much of your mind or consciousness fully focused on your left big toe. Notice how as you become more focused you begin to REALLY feel that toe in an extremely sensitive way and that the other feelings of your body begin to fade out and disappear. Wallah! You have just proven that our consciousness is

    It?s amazing how many of us are so unaware of this one very basic reality of our existence. Self-awareness is literally the key Rosetta Stone if you will to the secrets of the universe.

    You and I are literally pieces of ?God? or the super conscious being that conceived all. There is a higher consciousness above each one of us from which we were divided and ?born? or ?conceived?. Above that higher consciousness entity is yet another higher consciousness entity from which it was conceived, and another, and another, and another etc until you get to the top. How far up it goes upward or how far removed from the macroscopic view we are I do not know. However, I do know that we as humans are very much like cells in the body of God. We may not be as powerful or as intelligent as that being, but we are loved none the less just as you love your fingers and toes etc.

    God literally EXPERIENCES creation DIRECTLY through us. He experiences what we experience because we are a part of him. For this reason he literally feels our pain? every pain, joy, ecstasy, orgasm, love, hate, fear, guilt, etc...

    It is both correct and incorrect to state that we are God. We are Gods of our own universe? our own minds. We literally create within our own minds just as we were created out of the mind of the consciousness directly above us. We are literally part of God. However, from our point of view having our consciousness focused through this vessel the human body we are not the God of the universe. Yet, it is possible to ?communicate? and/or shift our perception to higher states of consciousness or ?points of view?. Just as we can shift our point of focus within our body, we can shift our point of focus to ANY point of perception which is connected to us? which is literally EVERYTHING, EVERYWHERE, and EVERYONE.

    I have literally experienced an experience through the eyes of another person.This is where my out of body and meditation experiences come in. When I leave my body I literally shift my consciousness to another higher perspective in which I can see that this world and universe from a more macroscopic point of view. Sometimes my consciousness shifts so that I am experiencing something through the eyes or body of another person. For example, I am a man and during one meditation experiences my consciousness shifted into the body of a woman while she was being raped. I felt the horror, the guilt, the terror, and humiliation of being raped from the perspective of a woman.

    My experiences have vast implications for the purpose of life and how we deal with things in our lives. However, I acknowledge that no matter how extensive my own personal experiences are, they are still limited in their own ways just as much as anyone?s and I do not hold a patent on ?truth?. I can only comment on my experience and what I feel I have learned thus far and let you work out the truth for yourself through your own experience.

    There are also things I?ve experienced that would be very difficult to explain or speak about unless you yourself had experienced them. Everyone has their own experience and we never truly understand each other until we?ve had similar experiences.

    I will share however some important reasons we as conscious entities have decided to place ourselves in this limiting simulated environment of earth within this particular universe:

    1) To exist in an environment with more limitations so as to produce qualities of strength of mind, discipline, focus, and self-control.

    2) To exist in an environment of consequence (action producing consequences that must be dealt with and felt) that teach qualities of responsibility, compassion, love, and caring for self and others.

    When a new self-aware consciousness is divided off or ?conceived? it is inherently and necessarily self-focused, undisciplined, week minded, erratic, uncaring, and irresponsible? not unlike a baby.

    When placed in an environment such as earth it begins to learn through direct experience to develop traits which make or force it ?grow up? in regard to these qualities, and then to gradually begin working in ?unity? with the ?collective consciousness? to create rather than acting in a disharmonious destructive manner.

    As I stated, I don?t expect anyone to believe this. I do hope however, that some of you might consider it, think upon it, and perhaps take the next step of personal experimentation and personal experience which is in my opinion the best and ultimate teacher.

    There are very specific ways to develop the necessary self-awareness to transcend the limits of the physical body and raise up to higher states of consciousness. These techniques and principles have been confirmed through the collective experiences of spiritual peoples all over the world. I would be happy to share some of these with those that are interested in seeking higher states of awareness? and to those that are not interested and would simply dismiss all I?ve written out of hand, perhaps at least I?ve provided an interesting story for you. If anyone is interested maybe we can start a thread for those interested so as not to disturb those that are not and/or those that might be offended by even considering such ideas.

  • Unfettered

    oops left out the last word of this paragraph:

    " A simple verification of this is easy for you to try. Sit down and try to ?feel? your entire body. After doing that a few moment next try to focus your attention on ?feeling? your left big toe and ONLY your left big toe. Try to get as much of your mind or consciousness fully focused on your left big toe. Notice how as you become more focused you begin to REALLY feel that toe in an extremely sensitive way and that the other feelings of your body begin to fade out and disappear. Wallah! You have just proven that our consciousness is MOBILE".

  • SYN

    Zen is older than God. But to truly understand both God and Zen, you must understand that both Zen and God are the same age as humanity.

  • justhuman

    Believe man...

  • Unfettered

    sure, you could just do that too.

Share this