by lurk 20 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
He has transmitted to them the promised holy spirit
Just a side-point but reading this I wondered if they really meant that Jesus sends the Holy Spirit? Jesus has the power over the HS??? How contrary of them! Next thing you know they'll be refuting their anti-trinitarian views!!!
He has transmitted to them the promised holy spirit, with which spirit they are sealed and are given a token of what is to come, their heavenly inheritance.
how can you have holy spirit when you keep getting the dates wrong (1799 1874 -78 1925 etc)
wheres the signs for the watchtowers holy spirit? the bibles full of signs being given as proof .
signs all ways seem to be so out of fashion with the WTS
Just a side-point but reading this I wondered if they really meant that Jesus sends the Holy Spirit? Jesus has the power over the HS??? How contrary of them! Next thing you know they'll be refuting their anti-trinitarian views!!
im surprised jesus gets a look in.
thanks blacksheep ..i was having trouble finding it
still shocked by this
lurk
Hi
I'm the non-JW that's currently involved in a series of debates with my JW mother-in-law that Little Toe kindly posted about the other week. He put a few questions to the board and thanks so much for your helpful answers.
She doesn't believe that the Org teaches you can only be saved if you are a member and doesn't believe Jesus isn't her mediator. Does anyone know of any quotes from the last decade that back this up? She hasn't kept her old Watchtowers beyond that.
I've already undermined my arguments by quoting a 1/10 or 10/1 90 WT about hating apostates, but it turns out these dates aren't accurate. So I'm looking for something we can definitely find in one of her magazines. The Proclaimers is quite an old book isn't it? Is the Insight quote below quite recent?
Hope you can help
Gillian
Gillian:
The Proclaimers book is current - actually more recent than the Insight volumes which themselves are current.
She doesn't believe that the Org teaches you can only be saved if you are a member and doesn't believe Jesus isn't her mediator.
"There's none so blind as those who will not see!"
Really, you must expect this of those committed who don't want to find that their faith is based on a pack of cards. The truth has been stated - if someone won't accept it, too bad, but it doesn't alter the fact that it's true!
I'm not impressed by this "show me a point and I'll show you a better one" approach. My advice is, don't try so hard! It's my view that people come to a realisation of the truth about "the Troof" when they experience some trauma that in turn makes them 'open their eyes' to all that they've been denying inwardly for years.
But getting back to the point you raise, the quotes already referred to are current teaching - does your friend have a better idea, evidence that the WTS have changed their mind? Don't hold your breath waiting for her answer!
Cheers, Ozzie
1988--Insight Volumes which are referred regularly in the WT publications as a resource of additional information and as a reference (replaced the Aid to Bible Understanding book released in 1971, 17 years previously)
w03 1/1 p. 28 What Can Help Us to Handle the Word of the Truth Aright? ***
For additional information, see Insight on the Scriptures, published by Jehovah?s Witnesses, Volume 2, pages 1105-8.
***
w03 6/15 p. 14 Imitate Jehovah, Our Impartial God ***Here, the expression "Greeks" refers to Gentiles in general.?Insight on the Scriptures, published by Jehovah?s Witnesses, Volume 1, page 1004.
1993--Proclaimers book--official JW history (last history book was the 1975 Yearbook 18 years previously and the Divine Purpose book in 1959)
*** w91 2/15 p. 18 "You Were Bought With a Price" ***
Nevertheless, in a preliminary way, the great crowd have already "washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." (Revelation 7:14) Christ does not act as Mediator of the new covenant toward them, yet they benefit from this covenant through the work of God?s Kingdom. Christ still acts toward them, however, as High Priest, through whom Jehovah can and does apply the ransom to the extent of their now being declared righteous as God?s friends. (Compare James 2:23.) During the Millennium, they will gradually "be set free from enslavement to corruption [until finally they] have the glorious freedom of the children of God."?Romans 8:21.
Holy Spirit book chap. 8 pp. 155-156 "Spirit of Life from God Entered into Them" (1976)
Although the "great crowd" are not in the new covenant that Jesus Christ mediated for spiritual Israel, he unites them with the anointed remnant as of "one flock" in one pen.
Ozziepost and Blondie
Many thanks for your replies. Obviously, you don't know me, but as a 10-yr (sheesh, that sounds sad!) lurker (mostly because as a non-JW I don't feel I have much to contribute) I really appreciate all the care and research you've put into your posts.
Ozzie, I do realise that I may be talking to a brick wall, well usually a Watchtower publication, but feel that I should at least attempt to refute her points with evidence. Her faith is built upon WT logic, so I'm attempting to reply with logic. You can but try to show that alternatives exist.
I can't see any trauma that may turn her away from them as they are her 'family', the only family member she remains close to who hasn't died or given up on her is my husband. We're her last link with the outside world and the truth about the WT.
She's also given me a tape of a public talk about the Trinity and has asked for my views on it. I'm sitting transcribing it now and would be grateful for your opinions some time if you can bear to wade through it :-). It's not the topic I would have chosen to debate, but if I can put together something that can make her or the elder she shows it to think, you never know what might be achieved.
Yours (optimistically) Gillian
Thanks again for your help.
Gillian,
It's typical of the approach of the dubbies to try to get you on the back foot, to argue on their terms.
From the way I see it, she's now shifting the attention away from her "organisation" to the Trinity doctrine, something that's been debated for centuries. By accepting the tape you will be shifting the arena from what she can't explain on to something you can't explain. My advice is to get back to the topic you had, the fallibility of the organisation. What better way than this blasphemous mediator doctrine!
Cheers, Ozzie
Thanks, Ozzie. I'll look into the Mediator doctrine some more - although from the quotes I've seen it seems rather fuzzy - the 'great crowd' do benefit but not quite as fully as the 144,000, well not yet, etc... How confusing is that intended to be!
The other issue she always pushes is the Great Crowd and the 144,000. I may have more luck with that. If I get anywhere I'll let you know. The Trinity talk was mind-numbing and started on about the difference between a car mechanic that knows a Ford Escort well vs one that would be all-knowing about a Ford Escort, to illustrate their point about Jesus not being Almighty God. : ( At least it's a novel approach I suppose. Anyone who's been a JW in the north-east of England might have been treated to the original, it would be interesting to know if there are any on the board...
Thanks again
Gillian
Gillian,
The mediator doctrine and the great crowd/144,000 doctrine are vitally connected. The average dub (R&F) lives believing they have no rights - whatever the F&DS tells them, must be true.
The big difference is this:
The Christian looks to Christ for salvation
whereas
the dub looks to the " Organisation" for salvation.
The WTS teaches that the parable of the "other sheep" is prophetic of the WTS. Along with the parable of the faithful slave it's prophetic of modern times. The clear meaning in context of Jews/Gentiles distinction is overlooked by them.
Cheers, Ozzie
