"Brainwashing" does not exist (page 4)

avishai

Dammit, I hate when I agree with you, bradley!!!! I really prefer the term high control group. even as a kid who was raised as a dub, I could see a lot of things that just did'nt fit. If we were made to be perfect, why is SO much of our body taken up with immune function? etc. Even those of us who were raised have personal responsibility. Damn. We dont want to buy it, but many of us bought into BS willingly, knowing it was BS somewhere in the back of our minds. It hurts. BUT that's what got us out. If we were fully brainwashed, i doubt any of us would be here. High control, abusive, killing tons of people, coveringup molesting, etc., etc., ? Hell yes. Total brainwashing? No

Midget-Sasquatch

I'd have to agree with Logan's point about absolute total brainwashing/mind control being fiction. I really feel for everyone who grew up a JW as I did. We were forced to live that life and I'm sure its altered us in a number of detrimental ways. But I don't buy that its completely removed our personal choice to believe or doubt. I'm definitely not strong willed ( I couldn't say "no" to being a MS ). Hell I'm still "fading" and being coerced to going to assemblies and meetings from time to time!!! But I never really believed any of it. The hold and control over us was primarily by withholding key information (so we didn't know any better), encouraging us to exercise thought reform on ourselves and by behavioural modification.

Who knows whether such drugs can be developed sometime in the future though?

frankiespeakin

I think the term brainwashing is given its meaning by the way we use it. If the majority(or sizable portion) of the english speaking world use the term to refer to indoctrination then that's what it means. There is no authority out there that decides how a word is to be use,,language is always in a state of flux and meanings change or new meanings are added to words constantly,,and it all depends on it use by the general population not on Webster's dictionary.

Golf

Whether we use, brainwashing, indoctrination, coercive measures or whatever, the end result is CONTROL.

As a professional in sports, when things are not going in the positive direction, I revert back to the basics. Professional athletes practice, practice and practice. Practice does not make perfect, it makes for better.

JFR, said, "Advertise, advertise, advertise the King and his Kingdom." Any technique that is used to control others serves it purpose no matter which word one chooses to use.

MegaDude

Steve Hassan in his book "Combatting Cult Mind Control" makes the point that brainwashed subjects tend to regain some independent thinking once removed from the influence or environment of the controller, so I don't believe the term "brainwashed" means you're a complete zombie stumbling around like an extra in "Night of the Living Dead." However, I could see how others would make that assumption and it's probably a good thing to use a different term that gives a clearer meaning.

I guess it all comes down to what the term "brainwashed" connotes to you. I still remember the first time my workmate pulled out a list of quotes from Watchtower publications that pretty well destroyed the Watchtower's claim on being a truthful religion. I briefly looked at the pages with a growing sense of anxiety and then proclaimed "These are made up. These are pure lies." I quickly gave it back to him as I didn't want to be contaminated by demonic apostate literature. It took over a year for me to even have the presence of mind to begin investigating whether or not the Watchtower literature quotes were even true. My reaction to my workmate's actions was a Watchtower thought-construct that went like this:

1. This is apostate literature!

2. This literature is demonic!

3. Do not look at it! Don't even touch it!

4. This person is trying to stumble you and is most likely being directed by Satan!

5. Your eternal life may be at stake at this very moment!

6. Get away from this now!

These "thoughts" came to me automatically. I had been *groomed* to think this way by the Watchtower organization and the unfortunate circumstance of being raised by a diehard fanatical mother who lived by every single goddamned letter of the Watchtower literature. I was 30 years old and did not have the presence of mind to say, "Hey, this is really something. I'll do some research to make sure these quotes are accurate." I did after a year. But that was only because I kept trying to convert my workmate into the JWs and he kept challenging me with the damning statement: "If you won't look at your own literature, why should I?"

A couple of years ago I shared Watchtower literature and information with one JW man that pretty well destroyed any credibility on the JW's claim to being God's handpicked leaders on earth. I still remember what he said. "But, Jerry, I believe it." He literally could not think for himself. To me that is a type of brainwashing. When I speak to JWs I meet about the problems of their beliefs, I don't see anything but fear and intense anxiety in their demeanor.

BrendaCloutier

{{{{{ Bradley }}}}} Hon, I don't think you're gonna "win" on this one. As per the other thread where this came up, I do understand what you are referring to, but as others have pointed out, your definition is far too narrow, and overturned by Webster.

Brenda of the Hey, if we were all brain-washed, maybe some of us need Professional Drycleaning class.

Happy Solstice (4:42 am PDT)

BrendaCloutier

think the term brainwashing is given its meaning by the way we use it. If the majority(or sizable portion) of the english speaking world use the term to refer to indoctrination then that's what it means.

Spot on, Frankie! i.e. the word Gay no longer means light and happy, but homosexual.

Brenda from the spin-dry cycle.

obiwan

I do think it's a "form" of mind control. Avi made an example of himself as a child raised a jw. I too was raised a jw. Avi, you made mention of things not fitting or didn't seem right. I felt the same way. However, I also believe that the ones who see things like that are the exception, not the rule. If that happened with all or most jw's, we'd see more out, or maybe even the collapse of the wts. For most that are raised a jw, they are fed so much bull, and not allowed to explore the world, that I do feel it is a form of brainwashing. You don't need drugs to mentally put someone off balance. Look closely at children who are raised as a jw, most/majority of them tremble at the thought of thinking for themsleves or "making it" on there own in the real world.

Anything in this life depends on a point of view. We're all different, so we'll all have a different point of view.

cyber-sista

I still hear a word like pioneer or any other JW catch-phrase and I have a flashback. When I first left the Org, whenever the elders would try to talk to me I would start to shake. I felt ill when I was contacted or spoken to my any JWs. (I still do to some extent) . I still catch myself saying things and thinking in a JW way of thinking. I have nightmares involving the JWs. I have had to get rid of all most of the things in my house related to my JW days because seeing them flashes me back to JW land.

I think that sitting for hours and hours listening to the same old same old information over and over again, which was presented to us in a way that it manipulated our emotions and fed on our fears was a form of brainwashing. My shrink calls it "conditioning" and I have personally experienced some extreme symtoms of that "conditioning" since leaving the Org (post traumatic stress syndrome) . I guess you can call it whatever you want to whether it be brainwashing or "conditioning", but it was most definitely a form of mental and emotional manipulation and it has had a major impact on my being.

cybs

logansrun

Since I started this somewhat controversial thread and have many replies I thought I'd just briefly state that some good points have been made. I'm slowly formulating some counterarguments and ways to explain how I think about this subject better. I'll post it in th next couple of days as I don't want to just ramble off what I"m thinking without more thinking.

Just one thought on Websters, though: Although a dictionary definition of a word is very useful it is also quite limited. This is because the public (or at least a sizeable portion thereof) may perceive a word/concept differently from the way it is narrowly defined in the dictionary. In the case of "brainwashing" I think this is definitely the case. The colloqueal definition of brainwashed brings to mind someone who is not in control at all and has gone through highly unusual means to get that way. (In fact, Brenda, you mentioned in the other thread that you couldn't help the way you were thinking) Although the WT does indeed use very coercive and propagandistic methods, I dare say that any Witness (except for the mentally ill) has been controlled in such fashion.

It should also be kept in mind that dictionaries do define words which have no correspondence with reality (such as "unicorn") or concepts which have been discredited or proven unscientific (ie "psychoanalysis" or "phlogiston"). Just because "it's in the dictionary" does not lend it credibility.

And, yes, I was raised a JW and spent the first 25 years of my life rather actively in the group.

Bradley

"Brainwashing" does not exist

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