I don't think the Witness people are under hypnosis any more than McDonalds customers, nor do I think the Witnesses are victims with maybe the possible exception of the children. All adult Witnesses I have ever known are either willfully nice or mean. I think the Watch Tower Corporations wish they had the power of mind control. Their current failure to influence the Witness people is proof they don't even have the power of persuasion.
Then on the other hand, the Witnesses do use all 8 of Lifton's criteria for thought reform. Don't they? . . . . .
"Brainwashing" does not exist
by logansrun 55 Replies latest jw friends
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garybuss
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logansrun
BTW....of course the WTS is a very coercive, indoctrinating group. But "brainwashing" is another matter entirely. When many (most?) people think of "brainwashing" they believe that the "brainwashed" cannot control their own thinking, that they are totally at the mercy of their coercive enviornment. Sorry, but that's just utter nonsense (unless, of course, some type of druggery is used). In another thread a poster mentioned that they "could not think differently" which just isn't true.
B.
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logansrun
From Wikipedia.com under "Brainwashing" I cite the following (redmphasis in red, mine):
Brainwashing by cults
In the 1960s some young people suddenly adopted faiths, beliefs, and behavior that were very different from their previous lifestyles and at variance with their upbringing, after coming into contact with new religious movements. The converts sometimes neglected or even broke contact with their families. All of these changes appeared very strange and upsetting for their family members. To explain these phenomena, the theory was postulated that these young people had been brainwashed by these new religious movements, pejoratively called cults. One of the most prominent advocates of this theory was the controversial Margaret Singer who was discredited, when her psychological theory of 'mind control' was declared "not scientific" by the American Psychological Association [1] (http://www.cultawarenessnetwork.org/Singer/Evaluation/index2.html) .
Psychologists, sociologists, most ex-members of purported cults, and most anti-cult activists now concede that the term brainwashing does not properly apply to the recruitment and retention techniques used by the so-called cults. Some anti-cult activists, like Steven Hassan started using the term mind control as a more modern alternative.
It has been alleged that these cults would recruit new members by isolating them from their family and friends (inviting them to an end of term camp after university for example), arranging a sleep deprivation program (3 a.m. prayer meetings) and exposing them to loud and repetitive chanting. Another alleged technique of religious brainwashing involved love bombing rather than torture. If those charges can be proven true, then there would be grounds for maintaining that some cult groups use part of the complex of techniques that forms brainwashing.
It should be noted that some religious groups, especially those of Hindu and Buddhist origin, openly state that they seek to improve the natural human mind by spiritual exercises. Intense spiritual exercises have an effect on the mind, for example by leading to an altered state of consciousness. These groups do not, however, proclaim that they use coercive techniques to acquire or retain converts. Whether they do so or not is a matter for objective determination in individual cases.
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astro_girl
My brother is a moonie and has been for 30+ years. I believe he is "brain-washed" or "mind-controlled", whatever the correct term is.
His behavior swings from this extreme and frantic zealot who "would DIE for his religion" back to my lovable nerdy older brother whom I adore.
At times he seems to be chanting something under his breath, over and over again. Sometimes his eyes will dart all over the room but seem to see nothing at all.
Sleep deprivation is common for him as he chants and prays in to the wee hours of the morning. He and his family bows to the framed picture of Moon and his wife that is displayed on the wall in his living room during their prayers. They are the "True Parents", you know.
He becomes arrogant, sarcastic and downright mean when anything other than praise and admiration is discussed about that billionaire messiah Sun Myung Moon.
He acts especially wacky right after one of his 3 week trips to Korea for "spiritual conference".
I never wanted to believe he is brain-washed, I mean, how could he be?!! He graduated from university and was going on to med school to become a psychologist. He graduated with honors. He was an atheist. He was funny, brilliant, sceptical, analytical, annoying, smelly etc...everything an older brother should be.
I do believe his mind is under some diabolical type of control but he seems very comfortable in his fantasy world. His sudden and drastic change of behavior speaks for itself. It was totally out of his character and personality that was steady for his entire life up to the point he had that unfortunate meeting with the deceptive love-bombing moonie recruiters.
I grew up with him. I knew him every day. How else would you explain it?
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gumby
The term brainwashing is as vague as the term cult is. It's too broad.
If it's true that "brainwashing" is making a believer out of people, then everyone who has a following has brainwashed their followers. This would mean when a person buys something from the suggesting of a tv commercial, they have been brainwashed. When a Kirby Vaccume salseman sells you a Kirby....did he brainwash you, or simply convince you he had a good product?
Gumby
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Wild_Thing
logansrun,
I don't know anything about you and I am wondering if you were raised as a witness. I would guess you were not. We are probably playing with semantics here, but I do believe the witnesses brainwash their children. They are brought up in an altenate reality and will continue to believe that there is no other alternative until their reality is challenged. That is how the process of leaving begins.
Perhaps it might be more appropriate to say that they gain adult converts through "coersive measures" instead of brainwashing. Perhaps the proper term to apply to the process of adults becoming witnesses is "indoctrination", but not children. There are two entirely different processes that happen. Adult converts are persuaded, won over, drawn into "the fold", and indoctrinated. Witness children are not. I was not "taught" the truth as a child, I lived it. I was not persuaded to go to the meeting, etc., I was forced to go. The stimulus/response cycle is used from birth. Children are very moldable and impressionable. The stimulus/response technique works very well with them!
The theory of behaviorism is not that outdated. The problem with the stimulus/response approach is that without continual reinforcement, the learned belief/behavior has a greater possibility of failing. I think the society has done rather well at developing a stimulus/response system. Witnesses are reinforced a minimum of three times a week. The more they are reinforced, the more permanent the beliefs become.
There are current theories that believe that if you are presented with something enough times, your brain becomes "hardwired" that way. Your brain actually creates a new neural pathway when something is learned. Eventually, those pathways become permanent, and sometimes it is quite a challege to undo those pathways. So, I think it is incorrect when you say the organization cannot biological get inside your head. In this way, they can.
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SheilaM
....Logan: Your wrongJust had to say something until I can post tomorrow after my FINAL
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MegaDude
The idea that a group or person can actually make you think, act and feel in a certain way is highly dubious.
I don't know, Brad. I think it depends on a number of factors. How young or how ignorant, how emotionally vulnerable the subject is. How intense the pressure or stressor is that is used. (Example: Patty Hearst)
How comfortable do you feel in the real world now that you have exited the JWs even though you know it was a pack of lies? Takes time, doesn't it, even though we know we made the right decision. The old thinking patterns that were installed in the JW experience can linger for years. They were not beliefs I chose from sufficient knowledge or freedom to choose.
I'm not saying it's impossible, but I highly doubt that any ex-JWs have ever experienced "brainwashing." Why? Because, although the JWs and other groups can use coercive measures to pressure you into thinking/acting/feeling a certain way, in the final analysis they cannot force you to do anything. We choose to give in. We are active participants in structuring the JW philosophy into our minds.
I think I did experience brainwashing. I was subjected to a certain way to think over and over and over as a child. This was reinforced with horrific threats (death at Armageddon with the wonderful purple pictures from the Life Everlasting Book of children and pets being slaughtered by Jehovah; and the threat of demonic attack by sadistic invisible creatures) These things scared the living shit out of me as a child.
Men like Noam Chomsky, Jean Piaget, Albert Bandura, Albert Ellis, Aaron T. Beck and the like all showed that humans are NOT totally at the mercy of outside forces the way the behaviorists argued
Again, I think it depends on the person and the context. I believe some people's spirit and personality can be methodically and systematically broken with the intent to make them think and act in a certain way. Others will resist to the death even under extreme physical torture. (Example, the Vietnam vets that were imprisoned in North Vietnam, Viktor Frankl in the Nazi camps)
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drwtsn32
Does "brainwashing" mean someone ultimately controls your thoughts? Or does it mean that someone removes the ability for you to think independently? The latter is definitely something the WTS is guilty of.
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PinTail
Hi Dude, have you ever heard of cooking a frog in such a manor that he won't jump from the pot? Well all you do is put Kermit the frog in the water and turn the flame on so low it almost goes out, and in about three hours Kermit is cooked and ready to serve to the GB to use as they see fit; get my drift.