A "first-timers" ponderings...

by upside/down 31 Replies latest jw experiences

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  upside/down

  I accidentally posted this improplerly so I'll try again...

  I'm a "first-timer"- so please be gentle ( or at least use lube)

  Can we try and look at the Bible's message without any preconcieved notions that we've been fed? Read it as if we've been lost on a desert island our whole life- what would we come away with? Perhaps that is too big of a task, so let's narrow it down to just the teachings of Jesus. What would you think?

  Wasn't his "message" a simple one ( large in scope, yet simple). Didn't he preach to the common people without the need for "middle management" interpreters to re-explain what he was saying? His teaching for the most part were self explanatory in plain everyday speech! It kind of reminds me of math. Most of us understand basic math and use it to function in life, but only a few of us know or even want to know or comprehend advanced math, which helps mankind accomplish some great things, but isn't necessary for normal daily life.

  Would you come up with anything that even resembles ANY religion we see today? I doubt it. What was the "religion" before Abraham lived? For that matter what was Abraham's "religion"? How did he "serve" God on a daily basis (I'm talking the "mechanics" of his religion, if any)? How did Moses "serve" God while in exhile married to a "foreign" wife? How did Joseph "serve" God while in prison and later with his"foreign" family, lifestyle and customs? Did they go to "meetings" constantly and count perfunctory "time" spent "serving" God in order to be pleasing to God? NO! They lived relatively "normal" lives for the times with varied customs all the while somehow remaining "favorable" in God's sight- HOW? They didn't have religious "managers" dictating to them how to be or act at every curve life threw at them. Yet their example is written down as worthy of imitation? Wow am I puzzled!

  Jesus preached to many people "the good news of God's kingdom", yet only a few were his close followers. The majority he told to go home and apply what little they had learned (pretty simple). Yet today we are told to preach the "good news that we don't celebrate holidays" or the "good news we shouldn't take blood transfusions" etc. The WRONG THINGS are the focus. Masturbation, education, the actual details of sex acts between MARRIED persons, dating, clothing, hair styles, sports etc. are all left out of the Bible yet th WT actually invades into ones life by trying to mandate these, often with the severest of penalties ("shunning" in it's many forms). The term "worldly" is used in the Bible to describe traits, not whether one is "baptized" or not. Yes JW's can be "worldly", just as non-JW's can be "godly". Why the distinction? Mega-ego trip? Why is the WTS consumed with trying to measure the unmeasureable? How do you measure "spirituality"? Counting "time" (what an abhorrent concept) and placements? I know the PC WT reply to these but it doesn't fly! Show me even a remotely related concept in the scriptures, and that it was a focal point by Jesus himself! NEVER.

  Intellectual exercises in logic aside- I know Jesus said the IDENTIFYING MARK of his followers (not his religion) would be LOVE, and yet after almost 20 yearsas an active "in-good-standing-witness" I have to be honest and say THIS IS NOT THE CASE AT THE KINGDOM HALLS OR IN THE ORGANIZATION! It is every bit as corrupt as the "Babylon the Great" that the WTS is always warning about- Hmmm could they (and all organized-man run-religions) be one and the same?

  Just thinking OUT LOUD!
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  under74

  Hi upside/down. Welcome to the forum.
  
  I don't personally believe in many things from the Bible but I understand what you say about Jesus. I don't consider myself a believer or a Christian but I appreciate certain teachings. I understand what you say about the kingdom halls. My first inkling toward rejecting the "Truth" was because of the lack of love, friendship, and understanding from others in my family's congregation....and this was at a very young age.
  
  It's good to think out loud...except when you're on a public bus.
  
  I'm glad you found the forum and hope to see more posts from you soon.
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  Winston Smith :>D

  They lived relatively "normal" lives for the times with varied customs all the while somehow remaining "favorable" in God's sight- HOW? They didn't have religious "managers" dictating to them how to be or act at every curve life threw at them. Yet their example is written down as worthy of imitation? ...

  Jesus preached to many people "the good news of God's kingdom", yet only a few were his close followers. The majority he told to go home and apply what little they had learned (pretty simple).

  u/d, just wanted to say, great points.

  The message was simple. Be good to yourself and those around you.

  Unfortunately organizations are motivated by an intention of seeking to retain the masses to reinforce their own sense of what is right or wrong. Organizations tend to lean towards defining loyalty as being "true to their cause" instead of being "true to one's own Authentic Self".

  Left to their own devices, most humans will make the right choice. Only when we have to be loyal members of an organization do we start to find ourselves in trouble, because when we become a loyal member of any organization, not only do we inherit their positive values as our own, we also inherit their enemies as our own, and we inherit them without scrutiny.

  While I feel that some writers and contributors to the books found in the Bible tried to forward the idea of ?following your heart? because they believed that all humans can find ?god within?, I have little doubt that the Bible was compiled by those whose interests are vested in organizational success, rather than individual happiness.

  Take care of people, and people will take care of you.
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  logansrun

  Didn't he preach to the common people without the need for "middle management" interpreters to re-explain what he was saying?

  Considering we have absolutely no record of anything written by Jesus -- or even if he knew how to write -- we have no way of knowing what Jesus said/thought/did except through the "middle managers" of the Gospels (both the four "biggies" and the numerous others). Considering the Gospels contain contradictions and factual errors -- written as they were decades after the fact, and with different agendas in mind -- I would say it is well nigh impossible to uncover what the historical Jesus actually said/thought/did. Oh well.

  Bradley

  PS...a reason Jesus might not have actually written anything down (if he could indeed write) is that he thought the Jewish Apocalypse and coming of the New Davidic Kingdom was imminant. If the world ain't gunna be around for long, why write anything down? Reminds me of a small Christian cult in Brooklyn I was once part of...
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  upside/down

  Logansrun, (wow, I didn't think anyone but me saw that movie...)

  I guess to me it's moot point on whether Jesus actually wrote anything down, certain teachings are said to be his, whether or not they are I guess all I'm doing is looking at "his" so called teachings (perhaps "pholosophy" might be a better word). I have not ever been convinced otherwise that the motives behind the writings attributed to him are in any way flawed. The message, I think is quite simple and clear, it's not rocket science or for the overly intellectual. Actually I think it is rather non-intellectual, as then it could only be applied by the gifted "thinkers" (seems to always be some kind of clergy). The message seems to be more on a "heart" level. I mean- how hard is it to just be nice? Apparently very "religious" people, regardless of faith, have a hard time with this. How many "religious" people don't have some sort of "holier than thou" attitude, or at the very least are judgemental. I do believe in God and I am not one of those people who is so "jaded" (ok maybe I am jaded) that I therefore discount everything in the Bible. Many people obviously don't want to be good people or submit to a "creator", but again I don't see all of these "religious" people showing any real faith by truly practicing a live and let live attitude. If you are right and everyone else is wrong -so what and good for you. Eventually God will do something, but not to vindicate you (remember Noah and Lot), they weren't out to "save" the world, they minded their own business and let God do whatever it was he was going to do. How arrogant to think that the almighty can't do anything unless some "religion" does it for him. Why do "religious" people always want to push ahead of their God, as if He can't see what's going on.. if He's so concerned can't the God of the universe do something? I think the JW's had it right in the beginning when they taught, "religion is a snare and a racket". Now that is TRUTH!

  I have looked at a lot of the new age, buddhist, occult etc and have yet to find anything of substance. I know that the hypocricy of "christians" make these look OH so good! But I have to be honest with myself and say I find it empty, fascinating (especially the mysterious stuff) but empty. I do believe in Satan and the demons (if you don't- I challenge you to get a ouija board and summon them and see if they aren't real- scary stuff indeed).

  Wow- I'll quit.
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  Unclepenn1

  Hey Upside/Down, I think your insights are refreshing., Thanks for the posts.
  
  Logansrun, I am afraid that you cannot find historical information on Jesus in the same way that a thief cannot find a police officer. Saying that since Jesus didnt write anything, ergo, we cannot say for sure if he really taught those things, causes us to have to throw out all of ancient history, if that is to be the litmus test. The fact that you state that the gospels were written decades after the fact reveals that you know little to nothing about textual criticism. Find me any other ancient writings that are written that close to the events. There may be a few, but that was not normative. In comparison, the teachings of Mohammed were not written down for 6 centuries after the events took place. Not trying to start a flame war, but I believe that you pick and choose your evidnce that you want to believe and ignore what you already reject. You are free to do that, I just thought I would point that out.
  Penn
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  logansrun

  unclepenn ,

  The fact that you state that the gospels were written decades after the fact reveals that you know little to nothing about textual criticism.

  Even conservative Christians (ie the JWs) concede that some of the Gospels were written decades after Jesus death. The Gospel of John, for instance, is believed to have been written at the close of the 1st century -- about 70 years after Jesus death. The honorable New Testament scholar Bruce M. Metzger, in his notes to the RSV states that Mark, likely the earliest of the Gospels, was written shortly before the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD. So, no, I am correct in stating that the Gospels were written "decades after the fact." I'm fully aware of the findings of modern textual scholarship, although there is by no means a consensus.

  Nice ad hominem by the way.

  Bradley
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  logansrun

  upsidedown,

  I think it's rather obvious you have a bias in favor of believing in the Judeo-Christian God. Have fun.

  Bradley
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  upside/down

  I think it is rather obvious I have a "bias" towards the Bible and the information it contains. My objective in making "critical" remarks was to show the folly of "religion", not the Bible. I hope I'm wrong, but I sense you have absolutely no regard for the Bible or anything contained therein. If that is the case, to me it would be very "biased" for you to even voice an opinion on a book you see as having no value- but I could be wrong. Anyone can be a critic- it takes little effort and even less brains, just the ability to complain or say you don't agree. It is a differnt story entirely to be able to debate and share information where a true conclusion can be agreed upon, even if it ends up being "agreeing to disagree".

  Again I feel (strictly an opinion, not based on any evidence but my limited observation) that most people have a strong spiritual yearning, which is slowly eroded as we age due primarily to observing "organized religion" and the "fruits" it shows. Most people are have enough humility to never be so "arrogant: as to feel they could find "truth" on their own (big mistake, I feel). I mean after all with all the HUGE religions on the planet and all of their so-called "insititutions of higher learning", how could they not know more than me- right?- WRONG! But instead of looking at the teaching of the Bible from a fresh viepoint ( a simpler viewpoint!), many people have a hard time disassociating the Bible from the hypocritical religion they've observed. Much like a woman who was sexually abused by her father has a hard time viewing "men" in any kind of good light, even God since he is often time given a masculine gender in many faiths. But does this mean all men are bad? No, but you can still understand why the woman feels as she does. It is her "reality" and real life experience that has warped her view of reality. And I would never judge her adversely for feeling this way, but that doesn't make her right to label all men as evil. I hope I'm explaining myself. Anyway- I love hearing different feedback.

  U/D
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  cyber-sista

  Aloha upside down,

  I too was a JW in good standing for 20 years and reason I left was because of a lack of love shown by the JW Org. In the end I kept trying to make it work--trying to tell myself that I should not be bothered by the imperfections of others (their cruelty and lack of love). We were told over and over again Jehovah's people are "the most loving people on earth", but that was just a big smokescreen. In the end when my family and I were treated cruelly and with disrespect I stopped going to meetings. When I stopped going to meetings (because I was discouraged and hurt) I was dropped by all my JW "friends" and snubbed by the congo I attended. JW love is condional and is only given when you are serving the Org. I think the WT Organization causes does not teach the real meaning of love, thus causing it's members much emotional damage and social retardation.

  After going through the process of separating from the Org life is much better now. I can open my heart to anyone I want and that feels right to me.

  The best to you,

  Unconditional Love to you,

  cybs