What kind of JW response do you think I'll get?
Wow, she literally breathes it, doesn't she. My mom and sisters would answer just the same way. I'm glad I don't have to be so absolutely right. I don't know if there is anything you could say at this point that would move her. I can truly empathize with you.
Wow Bubbamar. Sounds like my mom. Sorry for that. They just don't hear anything you say do they?
You were gullible but I'll use an illustration of Adam & Eve--they were the first ones disfelloshipped. ( Disfellowshipped but still used by God to create an imperfect family doomed to die as a result of inherited imperfection) Eve,being younger than Adam did not have the experience that Adam had & yet when Satan ask her if it was so that they could not eat of the tree, she added on the the command. Jehovah said not to eat the fruit or die. She told Satan that they were not even to touch the tree. Then Satan told her a lie that made Jehovah look like he was witholding something good. He said that she would not die & further that if she ate, she would be like God and be able to judge for herself what was good & bad. She convince Adam to take the fruit but he knew exactly what he was doing He chose Eve & rejected Gods right to rule over them & give them loving guidance (who knew better what was best for them: Jehovah who had been around forever or two people who had only lived a short time as Jehovah measures time.(Who would you believe..someone you can't see or a talking snake who promises you immortality) ( a thousand years as one day to Jehovah! Would you expect a three year old to make a wise decision? No I wouldn't but apparently God does) Like you, they had been told what would happen if they did not obey--they would die. Interestingly, you might enjoy reading this since it shows that each evning Adam had personal conversations with Jehovah so Jehovah had a warm & persoanl relationship with them. They ate of the fruit, they were thrown out of their "model home" (they were to turn the rest of the earth into a beautiful paradise like their home. Adam recived the most desicipline--for all ages everyone would know that we grow old & die because of him.( Yet men like Methusala who was alive during Adams lifetime and Noahs did not talk and share all the pertinent knowledge the first man ever created had to share...seem strange to you) He was told that working the land would no longer be easy for him & Eve was told that the pangs of birth would greatly increase. And, of course, they could never return to their garden home. Jehovah never spoke to Adam after that. Spoke to their children but never Adam & Eve. ( He took out a restraining order on Cain and didn't talk to Abel about the danger he was in) You ask what kind of world this would be? If everyone lived by the Bibles standards, we would have no babies w/o mothers or daddys. We would have no stealing, murder, wars, divorce or any othere problems as it will be in the New System. That would really be a bad world, wouldn't it? God has always worked with one person, Abraham or group-the Israelites. They were his convenant people until they rejected His son.(They were without his protection from worldly rulers long before Christ was rejected, they were under Roman domination before, during and long after Christ died) Then he made a convenant with those who followed Jesus. Look at the universe, Marla, there is so much order there. People here have spent melliums doing things the way they want, telling the Creator how they will worship him(God enjoys our disorder so much he even exiled Satan and his demons to the one planet where mankind exists just to make things worse)--would dare to go before the President & tell him what laws you would obey & which ones he should get rid of? --(CT Russell, J.F Rutherford, Nathan Knorr, Fredrick Franz being prime examples of this) Look at the world we live in, Marla. We are rapidly headed towards our own destruction on this Planet Earth, if God doesn't step in and put and end to it all. Read Rev 11:18. Jehovah is the only one who has the right to govern us along with his Son, Jesus. Man will never bring real peace to this earth--people are too greedy & selfish(People want control, they want to be worshipped...they want to be just like......the bibles description of a jealous God)--even if they brought about a World Rule--it would be rife with bribery, stealing, lying & all the rest.(It started in the Garden of Eden and exists even in the heavens so how will punishing humans solve the problem) You can believe whatever you want to, Marla. I will answer your questions. Don't please attack my beliefs. My are firmly based on what the Bible says.(Only if your eyes are closed) We use the Bible like a text book--they more we study it, the more we learn about our Creator & His wonderful purpose for us. I want to be in that New Earth. I want to raise your big, little brother. I want him to grow up never knowing the fears we have know.(Then don't instruct him in phobias) He will never have to worry about someone molesting him. He will never have to worry about dying in a war or being shot on the streets for his shoes or money for drugs. Can your beliefs promise that? ( Can yours, tell that to relatives of bro's and sisters who died in concentration camps in Germany and countries like Malawi, ones who died by refuseing vaccinations, blood transfusions and organ transplants. Millions have died in countless other ways which can be called time and unforseen occurrance accidents...if they have no special protection how can they be his special people?) (The Spanish phrase measures litterally means:Dear girl. Doesn't sound like much in English but is meant nice in spanish. More later. Went to eat. Disfelloshipping is a discipline( Which can be traced to many high control cults and religions even though it's a word invented by the WTBTS) Like Adam, you are cut off from any guidance or protection from Jehovah. You are not allowed any felloship with your brothers. You are & always will be one of Jehovah's Witnesses just and the Israelites were always Gods people even when they became so disgusting that he allowed them to be taken into slavery. They continued to be His people untill they rejected His Son. If you ever decided that you wanted order, peace & the wonderful hope of the New System, you would be one of his people with full privileges--the greatest one being that of a relationship with Jehovah. I prefer that to the kinds of religion that are out that that will condone anything that will get them enough contributions from the people! As the Bible says about the last days--people would look for ones who would tickle their ears! (5 times aweek for some 6 million) We have well over 2000 different religions--some came about because there were disagreements within one & so some left and started their own church (CT Russell and JF Rutherford see the Proclaimers book) --but all wanting to tell the Creator of the Universe how they will worship God! ( Pyramids, retirement homes for Abraham and Isaac, Armageddon 1874,1914,1925,1975) How arrogant of them. Exactly What kind of government would we have if everyone decided what laws they would or would not obey? It's called anarchy. Same goes for relligions that think they can obey whatever of Gods laws they want & reject the others. Or even to take some parts of the Bible & say it is not needed. All I ask is that you think about this. please? I love you but I know what will happen to you when this system of things goes down. Before it ends this earth will know anarchy & then God will bring an end to it all. Those that want to accept his rule will have ever lasting peace, no old age, & no death. Can your beliefs give you that? (Time will tell what our beliefs give us just as time has proven every prophetic announcement made by the WTBTS to be wrong) I think that this is all either one of us can deal with right now. Jehovah does love you. But he will always keep his Word. I did not like the discipline I gave you or your sister but because I loved you I did & if you remember, I always kept my word and I didn't back down-- even when your father would ground you and then forget about it because he knew I would hold you to whatever he ordered. Sometimes you learned something from the descipline. I love you, Mother
Looks like a no win situation that does not warrent another letter on your part Bubbamar...sorry about your Mom but she sounds oh so familiar to me.
Sorry to hear this news but I am not surprised. I have to say though I have seen much worse letters from JW parents to their children (not trying to minimize your pain I just think she could be worse - easily). Clearly though she appears happily blind to her own beliefs for example where she talks about not worrying about her son being molested (well I for one believe she should run screaming from the JWs if that is true) and where she says that other religions pick and choose what they wish to believe is true in the Bible (WT is in my opinion one of the biggest pickers and choosers out there).
I believe she is telling you her "bottom line" of why she will stick it out even if it doesn't make sense: They have sold her a bill of goods - ever lasting life - and she wants it so bad that nothing else matters (maybe not even you). It's a mighty powerful carrot that they are dangling for her and her desire for the physical rewards and pleasures are powerful even if she has to remain blind about anything else.
You seem like a very nice person - too nice to be saddened by this. I hope you are able to fill your life with positive people and ones that aren't obsessed with mind control.
Ok, my blood pressure's through the roof now! I've had it with JWs and their shunning shit. What the hell makes them think that they can make up all the rules and we just have to shut up and put up with it? Maybe it's time for us to start shunning them. Maybe it's time for us to make it understood to them, once and for all, that we will not tolerate further cult interference in our personal relationships. If they are too deranged to see that family relationships are more important than obedience to an abusive cult, then maybe they don't deserve to have relationships with us at all. Maybe we're a little too quick to respond to the little notice they give us. Maybe it's time for them to learn that it is THEY, not us, who are inconsequential.
Funny how the JWs only shun you when it's convenient for them. If she were truly shunning you to the fullest extent she would not be sending you letters or emails. I wonder if she's counting her time? If she doesn't want you attacking her beliefs perhaps she should keep them to herself. If she has the right to express her beliefs then you have an equal right to express your disbelief. She may not like it, but she has NO CHOICE but to accept it. The right of freedom of religion does not exist only for the benefit of Jehovah's Witnesses. It's for everyone.
Sorry, it's not my intention to offend anyone, but these bastards are getting to me. They are the most arrogant people I've ever met. And also the most stupid.
Walter *going off to do breathing excercises*
Just to say I'm sorry for you Bubba ... But you know who's lost in the JW shell ... move along with your life. Take a break from them (if you can) ... and take care of yourself (life is short ...)
Ok im confused.you were d,fed for Adultery right? If so,why is everyone condemning the D,fed action! If ive got it wrong i apologize.I actually agree with disfellowshipping if People are personally hurt bad in what ever way.But not for consensual relationships between 2 free parties.
Ive noticed this before,everyone is so quick to condemn the Jw,s they forget any innocent,hurt parties.
First of all, I'm sorry you have to go through this stressful situation. *hugs* This is very reminiscent of my recent letters back and forth with my JW sister. The crux of our disagreement was my 'betrayal' of her, and how the fact that I'm doing well now (mentally, emotionally, physically) doesn't negate my past actions (disassociating), but that I was to erase her years of abusive and controlling behaviour toward me, because she put on the "Christian personality."
A couple of things:
1. I pointed out her double standard and asked her if she really thought that what she had said was reasonable. I also pointed out (at least in this case) that her behaviour hadn't stopped at baptism, but had continued, albeit much less in quantity, until as recent as a year ago -- and I named a specific incident of her uncontrolled anger.
Your Mom seems to have a similar double standard...you and your sis need to change and get over things and put things behind you, but she's not going to change in her dealings with you. HUH?
2. I told my sister that I deliberately left religion and God out of my dealings with her because I knew that the WTS said that a "Christian in good standing" should not be talking to a disfellowshipped/disassociated person about beliefs or scripture. I also told my sister that if she wanted to open that door, then she should expect to be hearing all sorts of things from me; but out of respect for her and her cherished beliefs I stayed off that subject.
If you feel confrontational you can bring something like this up. My sister responded by voice mail and I deleted it before listening to it all, as she wasn't following my "rules" (see point number 4). In my case, I had nothing else to lose...my sister needed to give her head a good shake and I gave her a little help. ;)
3. I also told my sister that my relationship, in whatever form it took, with God, was between God and myself and that it was none of her business to be involved in that, or to comment on it. I again reminded her that she was not to be talking religion with me, based on the rules she was living by (i.e. if she believed she was directed to shun me, she should also be following the direction not to talk religion with me).
Of course, it's gotten back to me that based on this comment, I'm now labelled an apostate. I told her that the WTS wasn't God. Who knew?
4. Finally, I told my sister my boundaries. She may be shunning me, based on rules given to her by the WTS, but I told her exactly what I would and wouldn't allow in my minimal dealings with her. Included were things like not berating me, expecting any more apologies for my decisions which have caused her hurt, allowing her to vent/dump her emotional baggage on me and walking away, and the like. I told her that until she could speak to me in a civilized and polite manner, that she need not speak to me. I reminded her that we all make choices in life, and these choices may affect other people. I reminded her that many JWs don't shun to the same degree she is, nor do they shun before they *have* to, which she did. I explained that those were her choices and that they affected and hurt me and I wasn't demanding an apology, as she kept doing from me over my decision to leave.
I think it was GaryBuss (I'm so bad with names and scrolling down doesn't get me there) that said shun them back. Just because they're shunning you, doesn't mean you have to play by those rules. I try to think of it this way: If this were an acquaintance what would my expectation be? Or if they were a friend? Just because they're family doesn't mean they have special leeway to treat you like garbage. In my case, I took a hard look at the relationship and decided that what I was compromising myself to keep wasn't worth the level of compromise I had to make. To remain in my sister's "good graces while she shunned me" was costing me more self-respect than she deserved to ask for. So I put my proverbial foot down.
I was loving, kind, and firm. I made comment on many of her good qualities, because she is my sister, I love her, and she's under the control of a cult...I don't want her to view me as the enemy, because some day she may need me to be there for her. However, I did what I needed to do to set the parameters for our relationship. If she can't live with that, then again that's her choice, not the disfellowshipping, not the religion, but HERS. I made that clear as well.
I hope it works out with you and your Mom. It's really frustrating, especially when they spout scripture as if you haven't heard it all before.
Ok im confused.you were d,fed for Adultery right? If so,why is everyone condemning the D,fed action! If ive got it wrong i apologize.I actually agree with disfellowshipping if People are personally hurt bad in what ever way.But not for consensual relationships between 2 free parties. I've noticed this before,everyone is so quick to condemn the Jw,s they forget any innocent,hurt parties.
I think maybe if you read the responses through you'd be less confused. The subject is her Mom asking for their relationship to change, but not being willing to meet even part way (i.e. she will continue to shun her daughter). The question back to Mom was "What does that mean, it sounds like you want me (and sis) to change but you won't. That doesn't make sense, can you clarify?"
What Mom clarified with was a whole lot of stuff around the Bible and essentially saying "don't slam my beliefs, but your beliefs suck (even though she apparently has no idea what those beliefs are) and can't promise you what my beliefs can so why don't you come back like a good girl and do what you know you're supposed to and then we can have a happy relationship again."
Mom doesn't want a better relationship based on current reality, she wants things to go back to how they were. Understandable, but not very realistic if she's really listening to her daughter. I think most people here are slamming the "typical" JW response of hearing only what they want to, not the JWs themselves. I could be reading it wrong, though.
As for your agreeing with disfellowshipping, well that's your opinion and you're welcome to it. I venture to guess that you're not the victim of it, though...I thought it was reasonable too, until I disassociated under NO cloud or disfellowshipping offense and am now treated like persona non grata by ex-friends and family. When I left I still believed in all the JW doctrine, and simply wanted to be left alone to heal emotionally, something I couldn't do as a JW. I was an innocent and very hurt party, and made my choice to leave with the duress of never seeing my remaining family again. Believe me, that decision wasn't made lightly. My point is, however, that I was no more a danger to their spirtuality than a member of the GB. Oh wait...
The only reason (and I mean the ONLY reason) the disfellowshipping rules are in place today is for the benefit of the WTS...because if JWs "in" found out what those who get "out" know, they'd lose their cult-control. They don't care what relationships they ruin in the process. My 2 cents.
You misunderstand me.I hate the Disfellowshipping/dissassociation rule.For 99% of perceived offences it is cruel and Heartless(as in your case,please believe me you have my support!)True,i have never experienced it,i was just commenting how if that rule was used for Adultery,that is the only time i never had a problem with it.Innocent,hurt parties shouldnt suffer alone.
The crux of the Letter seemed to me to be the shunning rule and i merely commented that many seem to just jump on the Jw bashing programme without knowing the whole story.