Hondo--- I don't think you have a clue to what you are talking about . Are you catholic or have you ever been ? I was and glad I'm not as blind to the corruption as you are . They literally pray to mary as a form of worship they bless statues they even use the sign of the cross as part of worship if that aint idolatry than I was born yesterday . There are web sites you can even view the instruments of torture that they used in the dark ages . Homosexuals got their ass torn to shreds by some sick devise they inserted in the anal cavity . Don't even try the "it wasn't so bad " on us that are clearly more educated on church doctrine and practices throughout the centuries ....
Catholic Answers comment on the REASONING book
We need to keep the nature and the person of God, and the trinity association separate however. During Jesus ministry he was the person/human of Jesus, son of Joseph and Mary, and as such not part of the Trinity. In his divine nature he is though. The Trininty, although not mentioned by name in the bible, is alluded to several times in both the old and new testaments, starting with the book of Genisis.
They WHY didn't the nation of Israel ever think of God as a Trinue God and worship Him accordingly? There is an excellent book I recommend on this subject. It's called The Trinity: Christianity's Self-Inflicted Wound.
Recent historical and archialogical discoveries have found that the church involvement in the inquisition is much, much less than origianally thought.
Sorry, Hondo, but that's nothing but bullshit. Church involvement was less than originally thought? That's like saying "Nazi involvement in the Holocaust is much, much less than originally thought."
Mary is not worshipped, she is honored, at least in the Catholic Church I go to.
Mary's not worshipped? Gimme a break buddy, of course she is. There are Holy Days of Obligation for Mary; there are prayers said to Mary; there are shrines devoted to Mary that are visited by thousands each year; there are doctrines in Catholicism that separate Mary from all others. The Catholic Church teaches that Mary was born without sin, and lived her life free from sin. It teaches that she was received into heaven bodily. It teaches that she is the Co-Mediatrix with Christ. Some of her titles are: Virgin of Virgins, Holy Mary, Mother of God, Queen of Heaven, Queen of Sorrows, Refuge of Sinners, Virgin Most Merciful, and on and on. If this doesn't constitute worship, exactly what is it?
the Catholic Church is the original. If you get a chance, take a look at some the of Patristic writings by the early founding fathers of the church. Writings of Clements, Ignatious, and others, clearly point to the Catholic church as being the starting point of christianity today.
Like I already said, it makes no difference if they were the first, the question is: are their teachings and doctrines anything like what Jesus taught? Absolutely not. Neither Jesus nor his disciples ever renounced their Jewish faith. Jesus wanted to see changes made within his religion for sure, but he never intended to start another religion. Catholics refer to the Last Supper as "Holy Thursday" and I was told by a Catholic that this is when the Catholic Church was born. I guess the fact that Jesus and his disciples were celebrating the Passover---a Jewish holiday, not a Catholic one---is a minor point that they just want to ignore. By today's standards, Jesus would be considered a Reform Jew; not a Catholic, Protestant, Anglican, JW, Mormon or Seventh Day Adventist----but someone still belonging to the Jewish Faith.
Mary, whew...!!! slow it down a bit. Peace be with you.
I'm going to venture to say you are Jewish. If you are not maybe you should consider it. The only other person that I ever enjoyed debating similar topics, ideals, and doctrine with, and with as much ferver and passion as I am with you was a Jewish person, and one of my very best friends. Your points though are weak in my opinion, but I certainly enjoy your candor and tons of energy.
Some real quick responses. Not to entice you to go off the deap end again, but to elicit a calm and thought out response. Regarding Mary worship. I worship God only, no one else. plain and simple. I was taught this, as I believe all Christians are, as a Catholic in the 1st grade. This is what is taught now. How other folks revere, honor, or even pray to Mary, is not something I am going to lose any sleep over. Catholic catechism teached that only God is worshipped, period... Sorry, even with all your holy days of obligation, all of Mary's names, etc., You response does not make much sense.
Your other comments are ok. Typical responses, nothing earthshattering. Your response to my comments on the inquisition are good, although I was not trying to diminish the fact the the Catholic's, and others, did a bad thing, a real bad thing. I would certainly not try to mischaracterize or lessen the sorrow of the loss of 6 million Jews during WWII. Two different points in history, two atrocities.
I'm going to venture to say you are Jewish. If you are not maybe you should consider it. The only other person that I ever enjoyed debating similar topics, ideals, and doctrine with, and with as much ferver and passion as I am with you was a Jewish person
LMAO!! Nope, I'm not Jewish Hondo; I was raised in the Borg just like everybody else here. However, I have taken several university courses (I'm in the middle of getting a degree in what else? Religious Studies!) and it's incredible how much your eyes are opened once you start looking at things from a different perspective. I admit I went into it with a bit of arrogance, thinking I knew soooo much more than the average person, given my background, but that feeling was soon replaced with astonishment at what I was learning and immediately humbled my opinion of my knowledge of the bible.......yes I knew alot of scriptures but the courses teach you to think beyond the narrow stall of the mind that we were raised with and to try and see things in a completely non-discriminatory manner.....we all want to think that our religion is or was "true Christianity", but the truth is, there's no Christian religion today that mirrors what Jesus taught. Not Catholicism, or Jehovah's Witnesses, or any of them. We've ALL strayed from "the pure faith", just as Orthodox Judaism has strayed.............the reason is: we're all imperfect and we all make mistakes. And in the end, I don't believe it's going to matter what religion we belong to, it's what kind of person we are that's going to matter come Judgement Day.
On the subject of Mary worship, the Catholic Church may say officially that they don't worship Mary, that they just "honor" her, but to me, that's about the same as the Governing Body saying that they never said The End was coming in 1975. Check into the Catholic Church's history; you'll see that they most certainly do worship Mary.
Good points Mary (I still don't worship anyone else but God). Good luck with you degree. I have a good friend who attended Simon Frazier University up in the Vancouver area. Beautiful campus.
I guess what it boils down to, at least based on what we have bantered about over past day or so, is semantics and the individual faith and beliefs of each of us. The spiritual comfort zone you build within your heart and soul is, as it turns out, what is important. If someone wants to worship Mary, so be it. Will they be eternally punished for it, who knows, but probably not. I would think God is a fair and equal opportunity supreme being.
Take care, and have a great day Mary.
I'm Catholic and I assure you I don't worship Mary. Worship belongs to God alone. If anyone worships Mary, it is not something they were taught. I do honor her. But so did God by choosing her to be His son's earthly mother. Jesus could have come directly from God, bypassing a human birth, but he didn't. Among women she has been declared blessed. Luke 1:42
The reasoning book is simply a good sales tool. Implement the same principles in sales and you'll be successful!
As for catholicism, we shouldn't forget that in the early years (pre 4th century) there were many Christian groups. It just so happened that the Pauline church was more successful and became well established and then quashed the other groups to the best of it's ability. Subsequently it spread out teaching its doctrines.
As for those doctrines being flawed as Mary said, I think that no religion is free of flaws. The non-catholic Christian doctrines are also echoes of older (non christian) faiths.
Just my humble opinion.
First off I was not raised nor have I ever been apart of the WTBTS publishing corporation but have read alot of the publications as I was related to some . I am trying to find the part where jesus corrects the crowd when they are yelling blessed is the womb that gave birth to jesus and jesus plainly corrects them by saying NO , blessed are those doing the things I have commanded . Maybe someone can help me on that one but I will continue to look as I know it's part of jesus ministry .
One of the lies told by the catholic church is that mary is a perpetual virgin and did not have sex , that is so untrue , she was married to joseph and bore more children so how the hell does that make her a perpetual virgin ? There is no part of the bible that states mary was without sin but that she was favored by God . Even the catholic church knows we are all born in sin as human beings but jesus was more than a human being so he is excluded .
You are referring to Luke 11:27-28: "Now as he was saying these things a certain woman out of the crowd raised her voice and said to him: "Happy is the womb that carried you and the breasts that you sucked!" But he said: "No, rather, Happy are those hearing the word of God and keeping it!"
This in no way depreciates Mary. After all, she did hear the word of God and obeyed it. See Luke 1:38, 45-48>
Sirona wrote:As for catholicism, we shouldn't forget that in the early years (pre 4th century) there were many Christian groups. It just so happened that the Pauline church was more successful and became well established and then quashed the other groups to the best of it's ability.
Quite true... which is why it's funny that Fundamentalist Protestants, who accept the myth of the united apostolic church, are the ones who have the biggest quibble with the therm 'Catholic'.