Catholic Answers comment on the REASONING book

by Dogpatch 45 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Kenneson

  Heathen,

  I checked three translations I have here beside the New World T. None of them have "divine providence." Wonder where the NWT came up with that one? Besides, why would something divine need any man's approval? Or, are you saying that what made it divine was the apostles' approval? If that be the case, we are not told that Paul and Barnabas went back to Jerusalem to seek it. Everything else communication wise between Jerusalem and Antioch is expressed clearly. So, in my estimation, it's just speculation.
• 

  Hondo

  heathen

  The following is extracted from the Catholic Encyclopedia online. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03449a.htm. 4 October, 2004.

  "the combination "the catholic church" (he katholike ekklisia) is found for the first time in the letter of St. Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans, written about the year 110. The words run: 'Wheresoever the bishop shall appear, there let the people be, even as where Jesus may be, there is the universal (katholike) Church.' "

  There are other mentions of the word Catholic, in reference to a religion, as ealry as 155 and 180AD. Clement of Alexandria said sometime after 180 that, "that both in substance and in seeming, both in origin and in development, the primitive and Catholic Church is the only one, agreeing as it does in the unity of one faith"

  By reading further on in the encyclopedia it seems apparent that the term Catholic, in reference to the religion, was clearly established by the beginning of the 3rd century, and most certainly prior to, and perhaps as early as 110AD.

  Hope this helps.

  Hondo
• 

  M.J.

  Well, I think THE church, as it became more and more structured simply became the organized Catholic church (or catholic church) headquartered in Rome. This consolidation was inevitable and probably necessary as they were sorting out the Canon of scriptures, settling disputes over core doctrine, etc. But as with any organization that obtains unchecked power and control, I think, it eventually got too self-absorbed with power, too self-promoting...thus the need for reform. Whether or not the early church referred to itself as "Catholic" or not, I think, is not totally relevant. I think that all Christian churches, along with the Catholic church, share the same roots and foundation. The JWs, whether they want to admit it or not, owe the collection of the scriptures they consider inspired to that same foundation.
• 

  Hondo

  M.J. good response.

  Unfortunately, as you say, and most likely sometime after Constantine announced that the church was "the" church, greed, power, and general high level (Pope, bishops, etc) corruption began to take hold, as sometime happens with larger organizations. A lot of what the JW's practice in this day and age, fear, intimidation, guilt feelings, shunning, etc., was preponderant in the Catholic Church from 400/500AD onward for a few hundred years.

  I agree, that the term "Catholic" is just a term and somewhat irrelevant. What is pivotal, I think, is the doctrine and patristical ideas that were developed in the first few hundred years of the Catholic Church, and that ultimately set the stage for all other Christian driven religions of the future, including the JW's, even though they, and other groups, have purposely altered age-old (1600-2000 years old)Catholic/Christian doctrine with their inaccurate and highly questionable version of the bible, the NWT.

  Hondo
• 

  M.J.

  Catholics should at least take note of the JWs? willingness to promote what they believe. This is perhaps one lesson we can learn from them.

  I don't agree with this, even though it's well intentioned. Their "willingness to promote what they believe" probably has a lot to do with the fact that they are told they will ultimately be destroyed by God if they don't log in those hours.
• 

  heathen

  Some good comments being made here . My point earlier was that it was up to the apostles to determine wether or not something was considered divine providence . There were many beliefs circulating at the time of the first christian congregations so the Apostle Paul was known to correct misunderstandings such as when he says "If anyone declares to you good news other than the good news we have declared ........" Galatians 1:8 It all depends on how you look at it . I said one could use it to argue not that it was fact ...

  I think the catholic church went way beyond what the WTBTS has done in reguard to their conversion technique with the crusades and inquisitions , the various forms of torture devised to terrify people into submission are just plain sick and perverted ideas . There is no justification for any of it .
• 

  Mary

  People;

  It doesn't matter one bit how old the Catholic Church is----if we judge a religion by it's age, then yes, the Catholic Church is the oldest Christian denomination around. And as it's been brought out here, the word "Catholic" simply means "Universal". IMO, this doesn't mean anything. What DOES count, is how closely a church's doctrines and teachings are to what Jesus taught. I see very little in the Catholic Church that resembles anything either of what Jesus taught, or what he expected his followers to be like.

  The Catholic Church, with it's rituals, it's idols, many strange and false doctrines ie. the Trinity (sorry, but Christ was a Jew and Jews have never taught or believed in a trinue God), Mass, purgatory, indulgence, Mary worship........does anyone really believe "the True Church" could or would ever have organize and put into motion the Inquisitions??

  In the NT, we can see that squabbles, dissention and a host of other problems infiltrated the 1st century congregation less than 40 years after Jesus died. 40 years!! Even if the Catholic Church existed a hundred years afterwards, alot of doctrines and teachings can change dramatically in 100 years. Heck, look at the Borg today.......there's hardly anything that's part of the WT doctrine today that resembles anything that Charles Russell wrote.

  IMO, the Catholic Church is not the "original church" by any stretch of the imagination.........
• 

  franklin J

  from personal experience we know that there can be no reasoning or rational conversation with a JW at your door....why bother?

  the only real solution is CLOSE THE DOOR
• 

  heathen

  I agree with mary 100% . The doctrines of the catholic church do not resemble those of bible . They are a cult and I personally would never think of them as an "orthodox" religion . Here in America it is not against the law to beleive whatever you want tho so cults are acceptable . The WTBTS is a publishing corporation that convinces people salvation is through raising money by selling books and magazines .
• 

  Hondo

  Mary,

  Disagree and agree with your assessment.

  Agree:

  1) The name catholic does not mean much other than to identify about a billion people worldwide as being part of a religion established by Jesus. 2) Jesus was a jew. Jews do not now, or ever have, believed in the Trinity.We need to keep the nature and the person of God, and the trinity association separate however. During Jesus ministry he was the person/human of Jesus, son of Joseph and Mary, and as such not part of the Trinity. In his divine nature he is though. The Trininty, although not mentioned by name in the bible, is alluded to several times in both the old and new testaments, starting with the book of Genisis. 3) The inquisitions were bad and will certainly not try to defend the Catholic Church for their actions during these horrible times. Recent historical and archialogical discoveries have found that the church involvement in the inquisition is much, much less than origianally thought. This does not make it right, but the churches involvement is now apparently more historically correct. Keep in mind that the JW's have essentially let people die needlessly since the early part of the 20th century because of their bizzare past beliefs on vaccinations and organ transplants, and now with their contemporarily beliefs on blood transfusions. How many thousands have died in the name of the Watchtower Society. 4) Agree that their is a lot of ritual and "extra stuff" in the Catholic Faith. They could probably knock the hour and a half mass down to 45 mins by simply doing away with needless bells and whistles. The essential and heart of the religion, the Eucharist, is essentially the same, and spoken the same, as it was during the last supper, and is continued to be done in memory of... 5) Agree that there have been many changes in practices, not necessarily doctrine, over past 1500, 1600 years. Again the Eucharist portion of the Catholic celebration is still in tact.

  Dissagree:

  1) Mary is not worshipped, she is honored, at least in the Catholic Church I go to. 2) Statues/Idols are not worshipped. They are simply reminders, as in the case of the crucifix. It is a visual depiction of what Jesus did for us. 3) the Catholic Church is the original. If you get a chance, take a look at some the of Patristic writings by the early founding fathers of the church. Writings of Clements, Ignatious, and others, clearly point to the Catholic church as being the starting point of christianity today. I have only read a very small portion of them, and unless I'm mistaken, or have read them wrong, the Catholic was the beginning and is still going strong now. I even think the JW's can trace their roots back to the first centuries after the death of Christ, and if they did, I'm sure they will say that everyone back then was a JW back then.

  Hondo