crucifixation or upright stake (page 2)

codeblue

Welcome Cakes and Bernie

Hope you both enjoy your stay here!

I researched this question thoroughly a number of years ago. The "torture stake" doctrine is without historical and textual merit, is dishonestly supported, and ignores lots of evidence to the contrary. Crucifixion, by the way, is a historical fact. The question you should be asking is where the "torture stake" idea of the Society came from.

Here is my post on the subject that summarizes some of what I found:

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/72572/1160049/post.ashx#1160049

Farkel

: I know Jesus died on an upright stake and not a cross

You don't KHOW THIS. If you knew this you could prove this and you wouldn't be asking for help. Why would you ask for help on something you KNOW?

I would help you out here, but your arrogant assertion begs me to use my time in a more worthwhile way on other projects.

Find your own evidence: I can guarantee you, you won't find any for what you KNOW to be true. Otherwise, you wouldn't have asked us to find the impossible since you cannot find it on your own.

Farkel

Logicandreason

Werent the Romans notorious for thier Crucifictions?

Dude, havent u ever seen Spartacus?

pseudoxristos

The possibility exists that he died on neither.

Much of the Jesus story can be traced back to myths that were current during that period.

The common myth of a savior/god redeeming Mankind with his death upon a cross was undoubtedly adopted by early Christians.

pseudo

Midget-Sasquatch

All the mentioned links were fantastic with great archeological info.

Leolaia's earlier posting was very detailed and she mentioned the writings of some early first and second century christians like Barnabas and Justin Martyr.

If you'd like to read what they wrote about this just scroll down towards the bottom of the following webpage:

www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/7831/cross.html

lawrence

johnny cip-

I saw that program and it was indeed awesome. Is there a way to get a copy of it? It blew me away about what I once thought about the "torture stake" vs. "cross" subject. Boy was I duped by Brooklyn (s)collarship. Phew! Thanks for mentioning the program.

cakes

I know Jesus died on an upright stake and not a cross

You don't KHOW THIS. If you knew this you could prove this and you wouldn't be asking for help. Why would you ask for help on something you KNOW?

I would help you out here, but your arrogant assertion begs me to use my time in a more worthwhile way on other projects.

Find your own evidence: I can guarantee you, you won't find any for what you KNOW to be true. Otherwise, you wouldn't have asked us to find the impossible since you cannot find it on your own.

Farkel

I didn't mean to say I KNOW he died on a stake, I meant to say that a long time ago I was shown some evidence on the matter, but, I forgot where it came from and someone was asking me about it a couple days ago, so, I thought someone here might be able to direct me to the evidence on that subject. I just worded it wrong....sorry about that.

Leolaia

I didn't mean to say I KNOW he died on a stake, I meant to say that a long time ago I was shown some evidence on the matter, but, I forgot where it came from and someone was asking me about it a couple days ago, so, I thought someone here might be able to direct me to the evidence on that subject. I just worded it wrong....sorry about that.

The evidence I pointed to is devastating to the Society's unhistorical claim. Plautus, Seneca, and others prove that the ancient Romans used the two-beamed cross before the time of Jesus. The two ancient writers that the Society uses to argue the contrary, Livy and Lucian, indicate no such thing. Indeed, Lucian was the clearest writer to describe the stauros as shaped like the letter T. The same can be said about Artemidorus, Tacitus, and other writers. Regarding the cross of Jesus, the Epistle of Barnabas from either AD 70-79 or AD 140 similarly described it as shaped as like a T -- that is, with a crossbeam on which Jesus "stretched his hands all day long before an unbelieving people" like Moses. That Jesus' cross included a crossbeam (patibulum) is presupposed in John 19:17. The synpotics similarly described Simon of Cyrene as bearing Jesus' cross. One needs only to read Plautus, Seneca, Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Artemidorus, Chariton, Plutarch, and many other writers to know that this consisted of the crossbeam that was borne by the prisoner's outstretched arms and back (or chest, if carried underneath).

The Society discusses none of this evidence (unless they have done so more recently), and quotes the same erroneous sources (e.g. Vine) to back up their view. As the 1975 Yearbook of Jehovah's Witnesses reveals, the Society's view on the matter is based not on an impartial review of the literary and historical evidence, but rather J. F. Rutherford's dislike of the cross symbol. To expunge the Bible Students of the cross symbol, he argued that Jesus did not die on a cross and the presence of the symbol in Christianity is due purely to pagan Babylonish influence. To this day, in articles about the manner in which Jesus died, they continue to make this claim. Whatever evidence is cited in support of this view is secondary to the biased conclusion that the Society had already made without this evidence.

RR

Of course Jesus died on a pagan cross, the Romans were pagan!

RR

crucifixation or upright stake

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