should crisis of conscience be on the net? (page 3)

Lady Lee

ok one more time

Ray franz is no different to anyone else.He deserves no more respect than the next guy, no less.
Buy his positon in the organistaion though ,he has access to much greater information than the average witness.

he no longer has a position in the org and hasn't for the last 20+ years therefore he has no access to information. And the org is a very different one then the one he left.

What he has is information and responsability.

He provided his information in the form of two books. I suppose he felt that was his responsibility.

As a governing body member and writer of wacthtower articles he will have directly affected thousands of peoples lives.

Since he isn't a gov body member he influences no one through the pages of the WT. And since JWs are not encouraged to read older material then whatever influence he used to have is pretty much nil

If there was the possability that people could read the information he has , by chance , by seeing on the net he could help more of those he affected.

There are plenty of places (like right here to get discussions of the contents of the books including direct quotes. So people do have opportunity to see all the important parts. Certainly enough for them to see the duplicity of the WTS

Is this not more important, than earning some cash?

Well I guess it depends on how hungry you are and whether you want to live on the streets. I suspect Ray and his wife would prefer at least a step above that. He doesn't charge an exorbitant rate for the book. And he has cut costs as much as possible by publishing it himself.

The vast majority of ex-witness who write on the net do so for free, why is his case different?

Prove that. Many ex-JWs have written books which they sell and for a lot more than Ray's books. And I can provide the list if you want

This is not about being stingy I again repeat I have bought the book and would have done even if it was on the net.

So I guess you are fighting for "the little guy'?

I am disscussing the principle, not attacking the person .I do not know Franz and am sure he is a nice guy.

I would assume his principles say that to continue to spread his story he better eat and have a place to live and work so he can share the story. What part of that is so difficult?

All anyone has said so far is he needs to earn some money.

OK as an author he has a right - legal right to copyright and sell his story. His story. His right.

How about those the information would help?

Anyone on the net can come here or to many other sites and get information from the book. He provided it. If they don't want to buy the book they can go to the library for free, borrow it from someone or read all the discussions on it.

Ray is a retired man - thrown out on the street because the gov body didn't want him telling them they were wrong. For his honest he got the boot. No pension. No home. No job. For a life time of service. And let's not forget he lost all his friends at the same time - people he has lived and worked with for decades.

He has provided the information. It is up to people to find ways to get it.

Just a note here. As an author I put a tremendous amount of work into what I write. Every author does. And they deserve compensation for that work.

Perhaps YOU don't think Ray should sell his story. But clearly others do and think he deserves what he can get.

Now is the horse dead yet?

Brummie

could get it even if you had to give it for free

first, i think you're original post and question is a good honest inquiry, perhpas the vital point you are missing in the mix is that Ray couldnt give it out for free and that decision is probably not his to make anyway, it could cost him an awful amount to "give it away free", it could prossibly close down the publishing company that he and others are dependant on,

2nd why should he have to pay to make sure you get the free information? He invested a lot of time research and energy in doing all his research to make the material available before the internet was even available, he really doesnt owe us anything else.

He would have to pay an IP to put such a volume on the WWW, even if he did do it he would then be critised for not putting everything he ever wrote on the WWW so he could never win and would still be critisized. Then he would start a wave of critisism of every other exjw author that doesnt put their books on the net.

If people do not want to go to the library or to a shop to order the book they can still order on line and have it delivered to their house, if they can afford a PC to be on the internet they can afford a low cost book.

The drug company illustration doesnt really apply since Ray never set out to save Jehovahs Witnesses, he really doesnt mind if they stay JWs, his finished his responsibilty when he wrote the last page of his book and gave it to a publicity market (preinternet days), what happens next is not his responsibility.

Anyhow these are just my thoughts, I havent read everyone elses response

Brumm

Lady Lee

sleepy clearly our answers are not satisfactory to you. You have the book. Which means you have Ray's address. Write him and ask why he doesn't offer his books for free

iiz2cool

Quote:

"Larc you are so missing the point.Ray franz is no different to anyone else.He deserves no more respect than the next guy, no less. "

It's not a question of respect. Obviously, you have none, and probably deserve none. I have no respect whatsoever for someone who thinks that an author isn't entitled to renumeration for his work. I wonder if you work for free?

If someone can't afford the cost of the book, there's no shortage of free material on the internet. That's how I learned the truth about the WTS, long before I read Ray's book. The price of the book is more than reasonable - a computer book of the same quality would cost about 3 times as much, even though its content is obsolete withing a few short years.

The owner of the copyright decides how the material is distributed. If you don't like how it's done then make Ray an offer, or wait for the book to enter the public domain. Or write your own.

Walter

sleepy

"Since he isn't a gov body member he influences no one through the pages of the WT. And since JWs are not encouraged to read older material then whatever influence he used to have is pretty much nil"

That is soooo wrong.My parents were baptized at the time Ray was writing for the society.I was brough up a witness, my brothers and sisters were brought up witnesses, so are their children.I'm sorry but the effects of things people read in the past effect families today.

I think I don't see the book as work as such but information vital to help people.
There is a difference.
I think maybe Brummie had the most sensible reply.Franz doesn't mind if people stay witnesses he has no aim to get them out, as like the rest of us he has nothing better to offer.Fair enough.
I just think we(including me) should take responsability for our actions , the more influence the greater the responsability.
The issue was never that I wanted a book for free.
It was about easy access to information.
It is NOT THE COST but the EASY ACCESS i'm writing about.Since it was not on the net I assumed the books purpose was then to make some money.
Back in the eighties there was no internet, so of cource a book was the best option the way most people could access the information.
Nowadays things are different.
I assumed he wrote the book to help people maybe I assumed wrong , it was to make a living.Or a bit of both.

Liz"It's not a question of respect. Obviously, you have none, and probably deserve none. I have no respect whatsoever for someone who thinks that an author isn't entitled to renumeration for his work. I wonder if you work for free?"
I never said that you missed the point.

Dont turn things into personnal attacks I was discussing a principle.I respect and like Franz as the person I read in CoC.
I just see things a different way to some.

confusedjw

Sleepy - I think you are missing the point. You asked the question and people disagree with you. As I do. Ray Franz is not bound by your analogy to give away what he wrote. He didn't create the problem.

Is every elder who leaves a congregation bound by ethics "to spread the word" on what type of unfairness they saw behind the scenes and post it for free?

Neither was Ray F, but he did for which I'm grateful.

AlanB

I do not know what all the fuss is about.

Ray Franz wrote a book, which was published and he as the author I assume gets paid royalties for it, I assume the printers, distributers and publishers get their share. That is how the book publishing business works.

I cannot remember how much my copy cost, I remember that at the time I felt it was in line with other books that I would buy, I was happy to pay for the information contained.

That is how the book buying public work.

Perhaps as ex JW's who have previously been forbidden to buy books outside the organisation we are so used to contributing to 'cover the cost of printing' and conditioned that no one should profit from it (!) that the concept of paying a fair market price for a book is an alien concept. The book must have taken considerable work to produce.

If I wrote a book, I would have no problem in charging for it.

Perhaps J K Rowling should have given her books out free to the children of the world instead of profiting from encouraging children to read with her stories.

A

iiz2cool

It is NOT THE COST but the EASY ACCESS i'm writing about.

I didn't realize there was a shortage of freely available information on the internet about the society.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/28/default.ashx

Walter

Mulan

I didn't read this whole thread so maybe someone said this already.

There are copyright laws. Ray has a right to be compensated for his writings, and having it online is just not an option.

Simon

Sleepy. You have had the answer to the question. Simply repeating it ad-naseum because you don't like the answer isn't going to make it change !

What do you do for a living? Do you work for nothing? If not, why not? Why should you get paid for anything that you do?

Get it?!?

should crisis of conscience be on the net?

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