Awesome argument!!!!!! Very true and valid!! I DEFINITELY could not have said it any better myself.
Awesome argument!!!!!! Very true and valid!! I DEFINITELY could not have said it any better myself.
I don't have time this evening to read your post with the attention it deserves. I am willing to reassess my views when I feel it is necessary. I will say this though I find your condesending attitude quite off putting, however I'm willing to keep an open mind regardless when reading your post.
Xena, my apologies if I antigonized you personally. I have very strong beliefs about our modern society's ignorance of high-control groups and am ready to prove it to all comers. My sincere thanks for letting me blow off some steam as well.
Exekiel - I have no problem with people kvetching about the borg. That's why we're here. I also realize that the dubs are way too dedicated to long-dead doctrine, etc.
DId the Catholic Church's positions and history give the KKK the right to murder, harass, and take away the civil rights of Catholics?
The dubs, high-pressure sales, youth indoctrination, and coercive tactics nonwithstanding, in the end CHOOSE to be dubs. I know this because I did, and was seeking to return for up to a year after my expulsion. I sought to return even after I learned about many of the things I know now. The government cannot do anything. It cannot do anything to restrict the dubs and their tactics without violating EVERYBODY's innate rights. And that ain't worth it.
Czar: Compare what you said above with with you say in another post (about JW sinner's prayers):
Intensely psychological. Manipulation. If they have offended the Borg, then they have offended the Lord.
I myself felt this same effect as long as I believed the WT nonsense about being the faithful and discreet slave. As soon as I found out about the UN I realized I'd been duped, and now I pray when I feel like it.
I'm just pointing out that psychological manipulation (or mind control) does not suddenly end when you walk out the door of a cult. That's why so many ex-cult members require exit counseling. It is very hard to shake what has been pounded into your brain.
Also, its very insensitive to say people "choose" to be JWs because they keep returning (even when they're DFed). These people don't know any better, especially those born into it. I don't know if you were raised a witness, but I was, and I had to reconstruct my reality in order to completely purge JW mind-control.
Considering the pervasiveness of mind control today, it does seem daunting. Granted, not everyone wants to "take the red pill." But adopting laws that ban mind control methods and providing awareness to the public would be a great first step in saving the next generation.
As many of you know, I have just gone through, and am still going through and incident in which a Family Law Court Commissioner/Judge ruled that the Jehovah's Witness religion is HARMFUL to my children. His order includes that mother, step-father and any other friends or family members who are Jehovah's Witnesses DO NOT talk about their religious beliefs to our children. Any violation of that order constitutes contempt of court and requires the violator pay fines and/or do jail time.
What's my point? Some might view this as religious intolorance. It is not. Freedom of religion is a very personal thing and the courts avoid interfering with a parents right to teach their children religion. A parent's first amendment right can be altered by the courts to ensure the safety and welfare of the children.
When it comes to the JW religion, we are talking about parents who will, at any cost, make sure their children stay inside the organization. If that child is pushed to attempt suicide and that child is successful, the parent will then rationalize that the child is better of and will resurrected. That parent believes that he/she did everything in their power to bring up their child in the mental regulating of Jehovah and they not blood guilty, but simply obeying Jehovah regarding child rearing. They actually reason that the child is better off dead and awaiting the resurrection than to be under the satanic and wicked influence of the non-JW parent. This is serious life and death stuff and I don't give a good goddaamn about a person's religioius rights when those rights infringe on the health and welfare of an innocent child. The courts see it my way, thank god!
We all came from the org, and as nice as most of the folks are, they are programmed to do damage and harm when they see a threat, and the non-JW parent truly represents a threat in their mind to the child's spiritual wellbeing. As in my case, and I think it is very typical, when Nancy told the PO in the congregation that she was tired of the fights and abuse in her JW mother and stepfather's home and wanted to live with me, the PO told her it would be putting her in grave spiritual danger. That one statement created a feeling of hopelessness and dispair in my young daughter and created suicideal ideation that is now difficult to reverse. The PO was in effect telling Nancy, "Sorry, honey, we gotcha, you're trapped and you ain't going nowhere as long as I have something to say about it, and I don't care if you are suffering and in terrible emotional pain. You just need to be more obedient, cooperative and stop making waves. Then your mom and stepdad will stop being such arseholes".
THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG with this religion and any parent's right to indoctrinate their children in a religion should be closely looked at when it puts a child at risk or causes actual or substantial harm. Their rights in such an instance should be taken away for the sake of that child.
I don't know if you were raised a witness, but I was, and I had to reconstruct my reality in order to completely purge JW mind-control.
I sure was. 22 years and then kicked out while I still believed and was begging to be allowed to remain. Oh yeah, serious reconstruction.
And they just stopped by today and I nearly had a breakdown. It's powerful stuff, sure. But the only way out was NOT through government intervention. It was on my own, accepting the evidence, swallowing that bitter red pill, stopped chasing the rabbit... but the government, which often relies on emotion, is not the savior. You have to save yourself.
It's like getting somebody out of an abusive relationship, or off the bottle, or anything like that. Until they admit they need toget out, they won't. Ever. When they are ready to escape, we should be here to help. I intend to remain so. But they aren't going to leave until they DECIDE to leave. They have to take control, because their lives are THEIR responsibility, because THEY have to live with the consequences of THEIR choice - there is nothing you or I or the Government can do to stop them.
And how, ezekiel, would you frame a law that "bans" mind control methods? How the hell would you enforce it? Religious judges with the power of the state? AN INQUISITOR of what is supposed to be a NON RELIGIOUS ENTITY???? OR is there something else you are saying that I am missing?
Czar: You are correct that it is the person who makes the final choice to remove themself from a cult environment.
As to legislating mind control behavior, I simply point to Corvin's testimonial (Thank you Corvin!). Yes, right here in the US, courts are realizing that JW (and other cult methods) are harmful to children. In Corvin's case, his ex-wife cannot even talk about JW teaching in front of her daughters.
Did you feel any personal conflict when you congradulated Corvin on his success (from http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/8/78678/2.ashx)
Now that you have a victory, try to mkae a happy ending. It's rather the harder part of the process... good luck! congrats!Versus your statement on this string?
It cannot do anything to restrict the dubs and their tactics without violating EVERYBODY's innate rights.
I don't hear you lamenting the "innate rights" of Corvin's ex-wife to mentally abuse her daughter, Hmmm...
We also have Belguim and France, who are not limiting beliefs - but methods. They have laws on the books to deal with cult behavior. And throughout the world, courts inforce blood transfusions on JW children - a perfect example of belief vs practice.
Laws never completely stop anything, just as a law against murder will not stop all murderers. But it does legitimize awareness and provide a means to prosecute those who break the law.
What sort of privileges and government support do registered/officially recognized religions have in the US? (I'm not sure, but I guess that's where the misunderstanding of the situation may stem from). If there's hardly any support apart from their freedom to preach and stuff, then fine, I get your point about the freedom to decide etc. in the US
However I'm not sure if you realize what kind of government support officially recognized religions get in some (terribly socialist-democratic by US standards) European countries. In Poland for instance "priests" in of officially recognized religions have their medical insurance and 80% of their pensions paid by the government for their entire lives. Considerable tax exemption (property, cars, etc.) is another great benefit they enjoy
This includes not only Catholic priests but also JWs employed in Bethel, because JWs are an officially recognized religion.
The idea is that those church officials do some service for society. They often run charities or at least they promote values such as love for your neighbor manifested in socially useful behavior, or love for your country.
Now I'd like my government to do some decent research and make the same discrimination between the JWs and "socially useful" mainstream religions that Belgium made.
Jehovah's Witnesses are not even potentially useful for society. They don't give a damn about their compatriots, they run no charities, they even discourage giving money to charities among their members (and tell them to donate to their worldwide preaching work - this money is in ultimately controlled by Brooklyn, NY, US, and not Poland). They will rather get killed than defend their country. In fact they even teach that Satan controls the world of politics, which is why they never vote or join social life.
Most of the time Jehovah's Witnesses are social amoebas and sometimes they're social viruses. Their religious activity is mostly useless if not detrimental to society.
As far as Europe is concerned we're not talking about banning or persecution (the argument about putting JWs in concentration camps is not applicable here). We're talking about intelligent and justified discrimination. We're talking about governments making well researched decisions in addition to preaching general ideas.
The Catholics, Orthodox and Protestant Christians along with the Jews and the Tatar Muslims in Poland run hudreds of charities, cultivate love for our country, and teach you to become an active and useful citizen of your country.
The Dubs do nothing of the above and they lie about being Christians (They recently changed their name here from "The congregation of JWs" to "The Christian congregation of JWs" here, in order to get the same kind of social benefits.
The only moral right the Jws claim to have to use those benefits is the fact that they are tax payers in the system. This does not however fulfill the premise on which the social benefits I've mentioned are based.
Freedom to practice the religion is one thing. Government financial support for socially useful and active religions is something very different.
YWCA is harmful?
This is why politicians cannot be put in charge of religion patrol.