Questions For Jehovah's Witnesses Regarding Doctrine

by Corvin 31 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Corvin

  Recently, xlaurax asked for some good questions to ask JW's when they come to visit. The following is taken from Ray Franz's book, Crisis of Conscience, pages 330 and 331. These are very good questions and should do the job nicely.
  

  What plain statement in Scripture could anyone, Governing Body member or anyone else, point to and say, "Here, the Bible clearly says":

  1. That God has an "organization" on earth?one of the kind here at issue? and uses a Governing Body to direct it?

  Where does the Bible make such statements?

  2. That the heavenly hope is not open to anyone and everyone who will embrace it, that it has been replaced by an earthly hope (since 1935) and that Christ's words in connection with the emblematic bread and wine, "Do this in remembrance of me," do not apply to all persons putting faith in his ransom sacrifice?

  What scriptures make such statements?

  3. That the "faithful and discreet slave" is a "class" composed of only certain Christians, that it cannot apply to individuals, and that it operates through a Governing Body?

  Again, where does the Bible make such statements?

  4. That Christians are separated into two classes, with a different relation- ship to God and Christ, on the basis of an earthly or a heavenly destiny?

  Where is this said?

  5. That the 144,000 in Revelation must be taken as a literal number and that the "great crowd" does not and cannot refer to persons serving in God's heavenly courts?

  Where do we find those statements in the Bible?

  6. That the "last days" began in 1914, and that when the apostle Peter (at Acts 2:17) spoke of the last days as applying from Pentecost on, he did not mean the same "last days" that Paul did (at 2 Timothy 3:1)?

  Where ?

  7. That the calendar year of 1914 was the time when Christ was first officially enthroned as King toward all the earth and that that calendar date marks the start of his parousia?

  Where?

  8. That when the Bible at Hebrews 11:16 says that men such as Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were "reaching out for a better place, that is, one belonging to heaven," this could not possibly mean that they would have heavenly life?

  Where?

  Not a single Society teaching here could be supported by any plain direct statement of Scripture. Every single one would require intricate explanations, complex combinations of texts and, in some cases, what amounts to mental gymnastics, in an attempt to support them. Yet these were/are used to judge people's Christianity, set forth as the basis for deciding whether persons who had poured out their lives in service to God were apostates!

  Franz brings out another great point when he says, . . . the most serious aspect (is) the way an array of organizational teachings were/are used as a standard against which to evaluate plain statemens in the Bible, and that those plain statements (because they do not comform to the organizational "pattern" of interpretation) were/are depicted as distorted teachings giving evidence of "apostasy".

  Hope this helps,

  Corvin
• 

  Leolaia

  2. That the heavenly hope is not open to anyone and everyone who will embrace it, that it has been replaced by an earthly hope (since 1935) and that Christ's words in connection with the emblematic bread and wine, "Do this in remembrance of me," do not apply to all persons putting faith in his ransom sacrifice?What scriptures make such statements?

  Indeed, despite the strenuous efforts of the WTS to divine a prophetic date in the Bible for the coming of the kingdom in 1914, there is absolutely no biblical reason given for the general cessation of the heavenly hope in 1935. Where is that date in scripture? Where does the Bible say that the New Covenant no longer applies in our day, and presumably in the future when the elderly "little flock" has died off? Indeed, doesn't 1 Corinthians 11:26 declare that "whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes (elthée, note: not parousia). Doesn't the immediately preceeding verse say: "Keep doing this in remembrance of me?" What is it the Lord wanted Christians to do? Gather together on Nisan 14 to hold a talk about the "little flock" and pass around bread and wine with nobody partaking? Paul quotes the Lord as saying: "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me." By forbidding the near totality of the JW laity from partaking of the New Covenant, exactly how is the Watchtower Society helping fulfill these scriptures???
• 

  XQsThaiPoes

  1. No. The Governing Body are pastoral caregivers to a non-profit media and development company. There is no reason for them to be in the bible.
  

  2. How can you embrace a hope? Christ words mean squat if you are not a christian. Um almost everyone that has ever died will be ressurected how is that a hope?

  3. The FDS are a class of two or more christians. They don't opperate through anything. The GB consist of 10 "members". They are flesh and blood eating christians. There are more than 2 of them so they are FDS.

  4. There exclusively is only one class of christians those that end up in heaven.

  5. It says in revelation 7:15 they are worshiping at Gods temple not in his "heavenly courts".

  6. Last time I checked the moon was not turned into blood nor the Sun to darkness.

  7. You really expect me to explain 19th century para-chrisitan numerology with a bible of all things?

  8. To believe that you have to believe Jesus went to hell and took them to heaven, and that there are countries and cities in heaven. Because John 3:13 says otherwise.
• 

  Leolaia

  2. How can you embrace a hope? Christ words mean squat if you are not a christian. Um almost everyone that has ever died will be ressurected how is that a hope?

  And as we all know, it's not even a resurrection hope. When you die, you cease to exist -- period. Everyone who ever lived will not come back. Instead, God will recreate copies of these people who will look identical to the original and programmed with memories stored in God's great memory bank (consisting of a googleplex theobytes, I would imagine). Because of their programming, these virtual clones will believe themselves to be all these people long dead. The stuff of science fiction (e.g. Blade Runner, The Sixth Day).
• 

  Corvin

  Just want to say that I posted these questions for those who might be at a loss for words when the cogs of the WTBTS machine come knocking to pay shepherding calls on those trying to fade. xlaurax recently shared her experience of when a couple JW sisters came to guilt her and her mother, I think it was, into going back to the meetings again. The above questions are direct and to the point and designed to stump the JW, and they will everytime. We all know that the questions really can't be answered Scripturally because the doctrines being questioned are so false and non Scriptural.

  Every single one would require intricate explanations, complex combinations of texts and, in some cases, what amounts to mental gymnastics, in an attempt to support them.

  I posted this also for the newbies and lurkers to sort of help them, to reassure them that their doubts about the organizaton of Jehovah's Witnesses are valid and have basis.

  Corvin
• 

  Mysterious

  Every single one would require intricate explanations, complex combinations of texts and, in some cases, what amounts to mental gymnastics, in an attempt to support them.

  That is exactly it. But unfortunately the rank and file thinks that their abilities to perform these mental gymnastics just proves all the more that the FDS has God's backing.
• 

  XQsThaiPoes

  The only difference between a copy and an original is quality and authenticity. Assuming God makes good copies whats the point? It is not like we are more than crude organic automations.
• 

  TD

  XQ,

  1. No. The Governing Body are pastoral caregivers to a non-profit media and development company. There is no reason for them to be in the bible.

  The Governing Body of JW?s are far more to them than just pastoral caregivers.

  The notion that Jehovah is exclusively working through and directing the F&DS and its "Governing Body" is used by them as a litmus test of one?s Christianity. Reject this idea and you are not a "True Christian" as far as they?re concerned.

  Therefore it is the importance that JW?s have attached to this notion that demands its Biblical basis.

  2. How can you embrace a hope? Christ words mean squat if you are not a christian. Um almost everyone that has ever died will be ressurected how is that a hope?

  Even if the original question was poorly phrased, it still deserves an answer don't you think? Quibbling over words aside, where does the Bible say the heavenly calling was closed in 1935?

  Wouldn't this be a serious thing for Christians to be wrong about? Remember one of Jesus' condemnations of the Pharisees? "They do not enter into the Kingdom of heaven, neither do they allow others to."

  3. The FDS are a class of two or more christians. They don't opperate through anything. The GB consist of 10 "members". They are flesh and blood eating christians. There are more than 2 of them so they are FDS.

  Where does the Bible say any of this?

  4. There exclusively is only one class of christians those that end up in heaven.

  So do you reject the two class soteriology as taught by JW?s?

  5. It says in revelation 7:15 they are worshiping at Gods temple not in his "heavenly courts".

  The terminology of the original question requires a little background. The word here in Revelation for "temple" is naos (lit. "Divine Habitation") Although naos could denote the temple as a whole, its meaning was usually restricted to the sanctuary itself, the Holy and Most Holy. Accordingly, naos is consistently used throughout Revelation to denote a heavenly location. See for example Revelation 3:12, 7:15, 11:1, 11:19, 14:15, 15:5, 16:1,17.

  In the past, at least, Jehovah?s Witness have attempted to explain this away by claiming that the Great Crowd serve in the "Heavenly Courts" of the "Spiritual Temple" and that they are "Before the Throne" in an entirely different sense than everything else in Revelation that is "Before the Throne."

  6. Last time I checked the moon was not turned into blood nor the Sun to darkness.

  Do you reject the significance of 1914 as taught by JW's?

  7. You really expect me to explain 19th century para-chrisitan numerology with a bible of all things?

  The 1914 date is much more to JW?s than "para-Christian numerology." I think most JW's would find this term somewhat offensive.

  Acceptance or rejection of 1914 is another JW litmus test of one?s Christianity. Again, it is the importance that JW?s attach to it that demands that it have a Biblical basis, not the unadorned doctrine itself.

  Anything less and the Christianity of others is being judged by something other than the Bible. Wouldn't you agree?
• 

  True North

  And as we all know, it's not even a resurrection hope. When you die, you cease to exist -- period. Everyone who ever lived will not come back. Instead, God will recreate copies of these people who will look identical to the original and programmed with memories stored in God's great memory bank (consisting of a googleplex theobytes, I would imagine). Because of their programming, these virtual clones will believe themselves to be all...
  

  Leolaia,

  That's an interesting sort of question about the reality of resurrection that I was first introduced to -- oddly enough -- in a review of one of the original, old-school Star Trek books (by James Blish, I think). As I recall, the reviewer felt a highlight of the book to be one of the character's ruminations on the nature of being transported. Specifically, this character (Spock?) felt that it was not really transportation so much as it was his actual death (through disassembly) and the subsequent creation of an exact copy of him -- a distinct being -- at another location.

  As a thought experiment, let's say that Jehovah created an exact "resurrected" copy of us while we were still alive and then proceeded to kill us (the original). Would we then still be alive since the exact copy was still running around? If not, then how could we believe that in the resurrection it is we who will actually live again as opposed to something else that will simply seem like us and think it's us?

  Of course, if rather one believes that resurrection would be a matter of stuffing an undying soul back into a re-created body or some such thing, then this issue might be avoided. However, don't JWs still believe that nothing survives the death of the body?
• 

  Corvin

  Every single one would require intricate explanations, complex combinations of texts and, in some cases, what amounts to mental gymnastics, in an attempt to support them.

  That is exactly it. But unfortunately the rank and file thinks that their abilities to perform these mental gymnastics just proves all the more that the FDS has God's backing.

  They think they can perform these mental gymnastics, they think they are so smart and Bible educated, but the real truth is that they cannot answer the above questions with direct, simple, Bible reference.

  I believe the increasing challenges in defending their mind-numbing dogma is the reason why the WTBTS published the Reasoning book. All you have to do is just open the book to the topic/doctrine you wish to assert, then take the householder through the list of Scriptures twisted and misapplied one by one.

  ***

  rs p. 8 How to Use "Reasoning From the Scriptures" ***

  this book makes limited use of quotations from secular history, encyclopedias, religious reference books, and Bible-language lexicons. Thus, instead of making assertions as to the origin of false religious practices, the development of certain doctrines, and the meanings of Hebrew and Greek terms, the book shows the reasons for statements made. However, it directs attention to the Bible as the basic source of truth.

  As further aids in paving the way to share Bible truth with others, the opening sections of this book provide a listing of "Introductions for Use in the Field Ministry" and a compilation of suggestions as to "How You Might Respond to Potential Conversation Stoppers." Many other potential "conversation stoppers" relate to particular beliefs, and these are considered at the end of each of the main sections dealing with those beliefs. It is not intended that you memorize these replies, but no doubt you will find it helpful to analyze why others have found them to be effective; then express the ideas in your own words.

  When it comes to all the rules, policies and edicts dispensed from on high at Bethel, the Governing Body forgot Paul's direct and clear words stated at Acts 15:28-29

  28

  For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to YOU, except these necessary things, 29 to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication. If YOU carefully keep yourselves from these things, YOU will prosper. Good health to YOU!"