witness response to mind control information

by D wiltshire 33 Replies latest jw friends

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  Quotes

  Who is our totalist leader? What man? Russell? Knorr? Freund? Hershel? Heck, I'll bet most witnesses don't even know the name of our current president. Maybe this applies to the anointed 'mystic leaders'. Yeah. All 8000 of them.

  The mystical leader is the Governing Body. It does not HAVE to be a singel individual. Not knowing the name of the President is irrelevant: the collective is the leader. Sometimes this leader is amorphous, my ex-wife always referred to "The Society" in most hallowed terms e.g. "The Society says we should/shouldn't do this/that." They fill this role nicely.
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  Quotes

  Which one of these ways mentioned does the society use? NONE. Look, we are in the world, work in it, live in it, go out in service in it, visit our worldly family members in it, LIVE in it, etc. Where are we prevented, physically prevented and isolated? Where, David, where?

  As I pointed out in that other "Cult" thread, your friend would have to admit that Bethelites are living is a compound-like existence. Of course, R&F members are also mentally seperated from reality by not have any social interaction with non-members and being told to shun the world and the things in it. The segregation is mental... but is still present.
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  Quotes

  Use your noggin. The Jamestown suicide was a CONTROLLED community. They drank the cyanide-Kool-Aid AT GUNPOINT. The vast tropical forest insured no escape from the camp. The society does NOT control us !!!! We don't live in communes.

  Your friend should not comment on subjects he is not familiar with. Jamestown victims DRANK VOLUNTARILY (with a few possible exceptions). That's right, they drank, of their own volition, the poison. Does that mean they were not a cult? Could Jones defend the action (if he were alive) by saying "those people drank on their own, I didn't hold a gun to their head"???? That would be true, but it would not reduce the fact that their thinking process was warped by the cultish environment.

  As for escape, I saw something on A&E about a few escapees. But that point is off-topic.
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  Quotes

  Do we individual witnesses act like 'pawns'? Does Jehovah give us hard and fast RULES which we have to obey exactly -- or does he give us broad principles (and explains the important reasons for those principles) and then sets us free to use our own talent and ability and decisions.

  I would have to say "hard and fast rules". These have been nicely summarized for use by the police/judge/executioner... whoops.... I mean elder's, in the Pay Attention book. Perhaps that is why the WT keeps it hidden: so people like your friend can claim that those rules don't exist.

  The light of the internet keeps getting brighter and brighter: learn about the Pay Attention book here: http://quotes.jehovahswitnesses.com/pay_attention.htm
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  Quotes

  Deception? No, I have never found any here inside. I have found that, as the society honestly warned me, that all men are imperfect and sometimes it shows up at critical times.

  Well, there is the recent case of J. R. Brown deceiving... whoops, should I say "being imperfect" while interviewed by a New York radio station: http://quotes.jehovahswitnesses.com/spokesman.htm

  Come on! Was it an honest mistake for him, as official spokesman, to say "voting is a matter of conscience"???? That is a deliberately deceptive statement! Attributing it to "imperfection" is quite a stretch.

  Then there is the case of the "Blood in Bulgaria" where the Society's lawyers agreed that blood transfusions are a matter of conscience! Again, a lie! Read all about it at http://quotes.jehovahswitnesses.com/euro_blood.htm

  There is a huge difference between DECEPTION and IMPERFECTION. If your friend can't tell the difference, he may be a lost cause.
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  Quotes

  NO! One must continue to work on himself. The 'norm' here NEVER changes.

  Then why does the kingdom song admonish JWs to "keep in step with present truth".

  The norm does change, here are some examples:

  • smoking was a matter of conscience; now it is a greivous sin
  • innoculations were useless and a violation of God' law; now they are helpful and OK
  • The Great Pyriamid was "God's Stone Witness"; now it is "The Devil's Bible"
  • Aluminum cookware was dangerous; now... who cares about cookware???!!!
  • blood factors were not OK; now they are OK
  • a raped woman that didn't scream is guilty of fornication; now she is a victim and not a fornicator
  • Christmas celebrations were OK and bible students were told to "not quible abou the date" (i.e. even if Dec 25 is incorrect); now Christmas is a big sin
  • Party cards are a big sin in Malawi, but buying Miliary Service "cartillas" are OK in Mexico -- AT THE SAME TIME, mind you!
  • We were told Jahs organziation doesn't solicit donations; now we DO!
  • We are God's Prohpet... later, we never said we are a prophet!
  • Oral sex within marriage was bad, wrong, evil and the elder's policed the bedrooms; now it is still evil but we don't want to know about it anymore
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  Quotes

  Psychologists use this to probe their patients. Parents use it to help instruct their children ("You did WHAT? HOW could you? I raised you better than that! Say you are sorry! NOW!!") Is this author saying that my mom was a bad person, a cult leader ??

  It depends on the degree and extent of control. Some parent/child relationships are very cultish. I suppose some therapis/patient relationships could fall into the same boat, depending on the degree and extent of control.

  Note that your friend is not denying the allegation, but rather saying that if others use the same technique (to any degree, even a small one???!!!) they are a cult too, therefore Lifton's argument is false.

  Remember, it is a question of extend and degree of control on this topic; also one must consider the whole, with Lifton's other points as well. Then one can decide which end of the "cult meter" a group is at!
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  Ties in with the process of confession -- one must confess when one is not conforming
  TO HIMSELF, then to God. We don't run to the elders for absolution.

  There was a time when those practising the "evil" of oral sex were told to report it to the elder's. Of course, elder's don't grant absolution, that would require the application of forgiveness of sins, which a tennent of Christianity, therefore outside the JWs procedures
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  In_between_days

  You can tell by it's results and by its proofs. Dave, has Jehovah's Witnesses society proved itself by what it teaches, to love man and God and wife and child and to act for the betterment of all? Hasn't the history and goals of the society PROVED that Jehovah is behind it? Doesn't the society strain to keep to fairness, honesty, goodness AND adhere as best as possible to Jah's Bible?

  Hah!!!!!! ha ha ha ha ha ha!!
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  Quotes

  Words are given new meanings -- the outside world does not use the words or phrases in the same way -- it becomes a "group" word or phrase

  He's right. We have words for "don't-calls", sheep, lamb, pioneer, Bethel, etc. In fact, my engineering degree, by this guy's definition is a cult certificate. We say capacitor, induction, Faraday effect, Miller effect, feedback loop, oscilloscope, tank circuit, and on and on. We electrical engineers are a cult ! Holy cow!

  NO! Words represent concepts. We witnesses deal with concepts that the general world isn't interested in. Yes we have a jargon. It's verbal short cuts, but it is not thought-stopping.

  Again, remember that this is only ONE factor. An engineering degree does not fit the other "Lifton" requirements.

  Furthermore, there is a HUGE difference between a "technical" words that are not part of vernacular, but are part of a widely accepted and dependable branch of sciene and technology (like the Elec Eng words your friend used) and REDEFINING EVERYDAY words and phrases with esoteric meanings understood only to the initiated. Furthermore, engineering words seek to explain concepts (as your friend stated) whereas cultic "language loading" seeks to further the agendas of the group, especially the dichotomy and seperation between those inside the group and those "in the world".

  P.S. I am disappointed that your friend is an engineer and is still so blinded. My engineering degree taught me to think analytically, which was my first step on the road to escape from the WT