For shadow (page 5)

shadow

outoftheorg:

Do you think blind trust in the legal system is justified? I don't.

outoftheorg

Do I have blind trust in the legal system? Of course I don't.

Do you have blind trust in the wbts tribal based legal system?

Outoftheorg

shadow

outoftheorg:

I thought that I had already made that clear. No, I don't.

peace

shadow

This is a complex problem, that does not have a clear solution inside or outside of WT. Legal and social systems are not immune to corruption and abuse.

I could say that the bottom line is that parents need to step up and protect their children but even that isn't always true because sometimes the parents are the abusers.

Responsible, compassionate elders may serve a beneficial function.

later,

amac

Big Tex -

That's assuming of course that the victim was not intimidated or threatened into silence by the elders.

Of course, if that is the case then the whole situation is FUBAR anyway...but I would think the intimidation into not reporting it is the greater evil and the reason for the problem as opposed to them being told not talk to other JWs about it.

At any rate, they even put the offender in the same book study as the victim who reported him to the police. Naturally the family had to leave as it was too stressful for the child.

That is horrid. I can only hope that those elders one day realize how unchristlike they were and what damage they did.

Shadow -

I think we may just be talking past each other now...

Some may be guilty without a reasonable doubt, but not convicted due to some technicality. Months or years may go by before a person is convicted. Should the congregation wait that long before taking action?

I totally agree with you on this point...if they have enough avidence to take action judicially they should right away. But there may be other times where they are only aware of one accusation and they need to rely on the authorities to find other accusations and evidence to prove guilt.

I think that evidence presented in court should also stand as a 'second witness' so to speak.

I completely agree! Unfortunately this is not currently specified to the elders so it is a grey area that most likely would not be taken as a second witness. I was involved in a case where a relative of mine was the only victim. I asked an elder what would happen if he was convicted with only one witness but with other evidence, would he be DFed? He said "Well it won't matter all that much since he will be in jail, will it?" I realize this is only one case but my gut tells me that most elders would let sleeping dogs lie than try to DF someone using a court case as a second witness.

This is a complex problem, that does not have a clear solution inside or outside of WT. Legal and social systems are not immune to corruption and abuse.

Absolutely! But most people aren't looking for a solution, simply a reform of WT policy that is outdated and leans toward protecting public relations as opposed to protecting victims. I think most people would be happy if the policy was changed to MANDATORY REPORTING in ALL states and countries. Would you agree on this? If so, you are pretty much in agreement with the majority who have a problem with the WT on this issue.

On a side note, if this policy was ever put into effect...I'd be willing to bet it simply gets slid in the backdoor and the WT would not make any acknowledgement that their former policy was WRONG. That is one thing the WT never does, admit when they are wrong, it's always part of God's purpose of the light getting brighter and is always as it "should be."

I could say that the bottom line is that parents need to step up and protect their children but even that isn't always true because sometimes the parents are the abusers.

Yes, ultimately that is where the responsibility should lie. But the fact that the WT has taken such authority in peoples lives gives them great responsibility. They are not currently stepping up to that responsibity.

Responsible, compassionate elders may serve a beneficial function.

Absolutely! I like to consider my father to be one those type. I think he truly is a benefit to his congregation. But you must also admit that responsible, compassionate elders can make serious mistakes when they attempt to handle sensitive criminal situations that they have no experience in and on top of the irresponsible, d*&khead elders can really screw things up...

Big Tex

Maybe we are having a communication gap. So the accused should be free to carry on normally until convicted? go out in service? comment? stay in whatever position?

Yeah I think we are too. Basically my position is that when a child comes forward with the accusation of sexual abuse it should be reported to the police. Elders should not be involved, except in a spiritual capacity. If the police find enough evidence and prosecute, a trial will decide guilty or not guilty. But to my way of thinking, during that period, since the accused is under a cloud of suspicion, it should behoove a wise body of elders to move to protect the congregation. During that period I believe the accused should be kept from children both at the Hall and out in service. I also believe sensitivity and understanding should be shown to the victim.

As far as positions, comments, etc. that should be left up to the congregation to decide. That's more in line with the elders' responsibility as opposed to deciding whether the child is a victim or lying.

Was this situation in Dallas handled locally? What response to protests? (I assume there were protests?)

Handled locally? Well no CO or anything was brought in, just the elders who I'm assuming (but don't know for a fact) called Brooklyn for instructions on how to handle the situation.

As far as protests, many people in the congregation were angry and that is why the elders went around threatening anyone who complained with being disfellowshipped. No one protested as fear of being DF'd (and all it implies) can be a powerful deterrent.

amac

That is horrid. I can only hope that those elders one day realize how unchristlike they were and what damage they did.

Yes it is horrid, but not an isolated case sadly. I hope so too, but these are the same elders who bullied and tormented Nina's father until he finally committed suicide. Personally I think they are soulless monsters without a shred of common human decency. But that's another subject.

XQsThaiPoes

anyone see the "two witness rule" (which seems to be getting weaker with ever press release) is not the problem. I would have no problem if the elders did abosolutely nothing. The problem is the parents in many of these worst case scanarios have some brain disjunction that makes them forget to call the police.

As soon as the police as called if the elders try to talk to the victim or accused they can be facing anything from jail time to massive civil liabilites.This does not work if you try to crucify the accused in a full scale JC because you are a angry parent that cant wait to "shunn um real good" or if you are a wife looking for a "scriptual divorce" from an abusive incestuous pedophile of a husband. THe problem I feel is not the policy. Infact it is a reasonably good policy even if it does not side with the victim. What is horrid is that the police are not called first and only, and that elders feel emasculated when they can't participate in the A* kicking.

shadow

Well, I pretty much agree with these last comments, including the one about not holding your breath until the WT publishes some real humble pie. That is a mistake in my opinion. Here is a good scripture for the situation in Dallas (for those who still believe the Bible): (Isaiah 59:14-16) 14 And justice was forced to move back, and righteousness itself kept standing simply far off. For truth has stumbled even in the public square, and what is straightforward is unable to enter. 15 And the truth proves to be missing, and anyone turning away from badness is being despoiled. And Jehovah got to see, and it was bad in his eyes that there was no justice. 16 And when he saw that there was no man, he began to show himself astonished that there was no one interposing.. . .

Big Tex

Maybe I'm foolish for still believing in God, especially one who cares, but I do. Reading what you had to say is one reason I never go to a Kingdom Hall again. Someone also once said something along the lines of 'by their fruits you shall know them'. What is happening to children in this organization is horrific (realize this one situation in Dallas is one amongst thousands), and the policies of those in charge not only ignore the problem, they condone it. That is evil, and evil cannot co-exist with a God of love.

So again, I see no evidence of God in that organization, and if he is not there then neither should I be.

Chris

For shadow

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