For shadow

by Big Tex 52 Replies latest members private

shadow

bebu:
I am not so sure if those problems in the past are over and done with. For one thing, why aren't whistle-blowers reinstated if they were right afterall? Why won't the WT disclose its file of over 23,000 reported abusers?
I dunno. Maybe unprove allegations?
Let's compare with the Catholic church. The policies of both Catholic and WT were BAD. Perhaps neither really understood the deep problems their policies would create. The WT, during the Catholic church scandal, gleefully pointed and scorned the church and presented itself as far superior. But when the dirty laundry started coming out, they began to excommunicate people who showed that their own policies were flawed.
To my knowledge, none of these victims or families or elders who challenged the pressure to remain silent if there was not 2 victims or a confession were ever reinstated. No apologies ever issued for wrongly disfellowshiping, either. This is a glaring omission still today, and I think I would be waiting a long time for this to ever happen. So, it's really not done with, even if they did get their policies corrected (which hasn't completely happened yet either).
I again don't know particulars of the cases that you mention. I do know somehting about Bill Bowen. On one interview he was wearing an American flag pin and I know they had begun celebrating Christmas. I don't know about the rest. I think current df policy has some problems in general.
shadow

amac:
Well if the victim didn't want anyone to know, they probably wouldn't be approaching the elders about it. If someone approaches the elders, that means that someone knows about it and wants it stopped. Notifying the authorities does not mean the victim has to testify or tell anyone anything. The authorities will determine if there is a legitimate case and if there is any immediate danger. Whether the victim wants to testify or go forward with it is completely up to them and will usually determine what action the authorities will take.
Again, if a victim is approaching the elders, it is because they are looking for help, not because they do not want anyone to know.
Some victims might be at their limit just to tell someone they know. I personally would seek the advice of a professional before I took any action relative to the situation of a suicidal person. I am not speaking without any personal experience with such a situation.
I think that if the society had a mandatory reporting policy, you would see a decline in child abuse, not an increase in suicides.
I think you are right about that. I would just emphasize to care for the victim first and then seek punishment of the perpetrator. If it is a complete no-brainer, then why haven't all states passed mandatory reporting?
undercover

Shadow, thank you for answering.
1. believe in God
2. believe in Bible
3. some basics - Trinity, hell, soul, etc.
I have no issues with those. Belief in God and the Bible are pretty much a given for any christian religion. I still tend to accept the WTS position on hell and soul myself. Makes sense. The trinity, well, that's a debate for people who care more about it than I do.
4. no part of world - morals (generally), no war
I posted on this the other day. The fact that JWs stay neutral in the world's politics and it's wars was one of the things that kept me in for as long as it did. This is a noble ideal. One that can be appreciated to some degree. But, at the same time I can't see how we can stay completely neutral living in the world. If you as a JW were on a plane hijacked by terrorists would you help to fight back or would your neutral stand keep you from lifting even a finger in self-defense of the plane? This may be a hypothetical but the premise behind it is a valid question. What would you do?
5. emphasis on hope of God's Kingdom
What hope does God's kingdom bring? Destruction of most of mankind? Mankind that he created? Is most of mankind that wicked? Could you pull the switch that would kill your child despite their living in a way that doesn't please you?
6. exercise faith by talking to others
Many religions spread their gospel message. They use various methods. They just don't go door to door. They don't keep formal records and judge their members by how many hours they spend knocking on doors. But I concede that if one truly believes he will share it with others, maybe not in such a formal, salesmanship way.
7. international brotherhood
I don't have a real problem with this. I know many who will jump all over it. But people want to belong and the WTS gives a sense of belonging to its memebers for the most part. This may be why it's so hard for some to leave. Too much brotherhood. They're trapped.
bebu

1. believe in God
2. believe in Bible
3. some basics - Trinity, hell, soul, etc.
4. no part of world - morals (generally), no war
5. emphasis on hope of God's Kingdom
6. exercise faith by talking to others
7. international brotherhood

Not a bad list. I suspect many JWs feel about the same way.
I subscribe to nearly all the same ideals; I trust Christ, though, not obedience to the WT, for my life. There's a MUCH more solid Biblical basis for that.
bebu
"gonna go do some yardwork now" class
shadow

undercover:
I posted on this the other day. The fact that JWs stay neutral in the world's politics and it's wars was one of the things that kept me in for as long as it did. This is a noble ideal. One that can be appreciated to some degree. But, at the same time I can't see how we can stay completely neutral living in the world. If you as a JW were on a plane hijacked by terrorists would you help to fight back or would your neutral stand keep you from lifting even a finger in self-defense of the plane? This may be a hypothetical but the premise behind it is a valid question. What would you do?
I would surreptitiously see if I had another pair of pants to change into and then hopefully fight back somehow. Pre 9/11 I would likely have acted the same as the people on the first three planes.
If US decided (or whatever country you are in) found a new enemy, would you be willing to trust the judgment of the political leaders and go kill whomever they told you to?
What hope does God's kingdom bring? Destruction of most of mankind? Mankind that he created? Is most of mankind that wicked? Could you pull the switch that would kill your child despite their living in a way that doesn't please you?
6. exercise faith by talking to others
End of war, crime, hatred, broken families, resurrection of millions, etc. etc. If we stipulate that we are the product of God, then I would not presume to tell him how to run the universe. The Bible is pretty clear about a judgment day. I'm not so clear about who will be spared. Maybe you and I will discuss this in person in a hundred years.
Many religions spread their gospel message. They use various methods. They just don't go door to door. They don't keep formal records and judge their members by how many hours they spend knocking on doors. But I concede that if one truly believes he will share it with others, maybe not in such a formal, salesmanship way.
Most people I have talked to over the years didn't even know much about what their church taught or what the Bible said.
7. international brotherhood
I don't have a real problem with this. I know many who will jump all over it. But people want to belong and the WTS gives a sense of belonging to its memebers for the most part. This may be why it's so hard for some to leave. Too much brotherhood. They're trapped. I think that most do not feel 'trapped'. Some do. This could lead back to df policy, but I already said that I saw some problems with current situation.
amac

I think you are right about that. I would just emphasize to care for the victim first and then seek punishment of the perpetrator.

I agree, but in such a large organization there has to be a general policy. I believe it better to make that policy to report as opposed to not report. I'm sure you'll agree that the policy to not report is not out of the best interest for the victim.
If it is a complete no-brainer, then why haven't all states passed mandatory reporting?
That's a very good point! Unfortunately state laws are playing catch up to this problem as well. You would think that God's organization would be leading the way in taking care of it's flock as opposed to waiting for government legislation on it.
Unrfotunately, these lack of laws are loopholes designed for confessionals to clergy (another debate would be that since these laws are meant to protect confessionals, and JW's do not practice confessions, they should not take advantage of this law) where the confessor has a confidentiality expection with the clergy class. Many states are unwilling to legislate against such an ancient institution that would break the religous rules of confession. Unfortunately, religions who don't practice confession fall under this religous loophole. If you live in a state that does not require reporting by the clergy, I recommend you right a letter to your congressman to push for reform. Last I checked, there were only 13 states that require the clergy to report accusations of molestation.
Big Tex

If elders are indeed unqualified to deal with a victim who is suicidal, I would advise them to go to a professional before I disregarded the victim's wishes and went to the police

I hear you. I guess the only difference between us is that I would feel obligated to report irregardless (much like the Society's admonition to report wrongdoing to elders even if a friend confided).
1. believe in God
2. believe in Bible
3. some basics - Trinity, hell, soul, etc.
4. no part of world - morals (generally), no war
5. emphasis on hope of God's Kingdom
6. exercise faith by talking to others
7. international brotherhood

Sounds like me in the 80s. I think most people don't leave unless they are personally touched in some way. That was true with myself and my wife. I left because of the two witness rule, but I didn't even know it existed until it was applied in my case.
One thing I do still hang on to is political neutrality.
If it is a complete no-brainer, then why haven't all states passed mandatory reporting?

Good question. There's a lot of things about politics that make no sense.
But, at least to me, a religious organization exists because of ethics and morals. It is the attempt to find a power greater than our own. So I hold such organizations to higher standards than IBM or Microsoft who exist to make money. And if an organization claims to be the sole channel for God, then I expect them to act like it. I would expect such a group would have rules and behaviors above the norm. Jesus taught over and over about love (care for these little ones), so in the case of child abuse taking a legalistic approach of doing only what the law requires is, to me, contrary to the very heart of Jesus' teachings. In such cases, I would expect that Jesus himself would be primarilyi concerned with those innocents hurt, and yet by their actions and policies Jehovah's Witnesses have shown that is not their primary concern.
amac

By the way...
I personally would seek the advice of a professional before I took any action relative to the situation of a suicidal person.
This is not a bad idea, but I'd be willing to bet a pretty good chunk of money that if you talked to a professional about this and they found out that there was a person molesting children, they would get the legal authorities involved rather quickly.
shadow

I really believe that most JW's primary concern would be the victimized child. I cannot speak from personal experience as to how this was handled years ago.
It does seem that WT policy was misguided for years. You might note that 'Bible-based policies' was not included as a reason for me remaining a JW.
Those victimized by previous errors have my full sympathy, not that my sympathy is really worth anything.
shadow

amac:
I think you are right that a professional would quickly involve the authorities. I believe they are mandatory reporters in most states.
I'll check back when I get a chance.
Thanks for keeping it civil.

For shadow

Share this