by messenger 21 Replies latest jw friends
Orangeblossom,
While I dismissed it as one false prophet calling another a false prophet, it did make for some interesting reading and took away the guilt that I had felt for a long time. Perhaps, some of you may remember the website.
I have that book too. MDS is definitely a false prophet.
MDS,
Hows the new position going MDS? Whats it feel like to be KING? You got competition though, Larsguy thinks he is the messiah too.
Hello TweetieBird (OrangeBlossom):
I remember a couple of years back, when I was first starting to doubt if "it" was the truth, I came across a web site. It was something like TWMC"...stood for "Two Witnesses Must Come" ... Actually, it was the first "apostate" site that I dared peek into and what caught my eye was that it described itself as elders looking for the society to reform (or something like that)..Anyway, they even published a book which I found at the bookstore so I purchased it and read it.
What was interesting is that it prophesied that the WTS would eventually support the UN
While I dismissed it as one FALSE PROPHET calling another a false prophet, it did make for some interesting reading and took away the guilt that I had felt for a long time. Perhaps, some of you may remember the website.
Just wondering, are the writers of "The Report" still "false prophets"?
bjc
In case this was missed on the other United Nations thread:
http://www.freeminds.org/history/report.htm
Apostasy Knocks At Bethel's Door
A Look at "The Report"
The first of many dissenters to challenge the mother organization
I had heard about "The 'Report'" a few months ago. It was a book that was somehow making its way into a lot of bookstores, a rather unusual phenomena for a self-published work. Someone was spending a lot of time and effort to get this message out. After a proponent of the book (which is now printed in three volumes, and in spite of the web site teaser must be purchased for $12.95 each) joined our Internet mail list, I decided to do a report on "The 'Report'." Surfing on over to their website at www.the-report.com/overview.htm I read the following:
Overview of The Report
MY colleagues and I are pleased that you are interested in reading the document we call THE "REPORT." We feel sure that you will find this particular information quite beneficial and enlightening as one who "thirsts for truth and righteousness." (Matthew 5:6) In fact, the following material, we think, will help you identify modern-day "Israel" of Bible prophecy, ~ whom we believe to be Jehovah's Witnesses as a nation. But you must be thinking at this point:
What would make a rational individual think that this small, obscure, and seemingly, odd family of about five million people, scattered throughout the earth, could in any way represent the nation of "Israel," of Bible prophecy? 1
"Ah, it looks like defectors from the Watchtower, who still haven't completed their homework," I thought. Not that I condemn a person for still holding on to organizational ideas, as most of us can remember how long it took us to get free of their selective indoctrination. It takes a few years unless the person is especially studious and has a good deal of exposure to other people and ideas, as well as a few history lessons. "Apparently these fellows are still trying to piece it all together," I thought. Yet as I read on, it appears they had already come to solid conclusions and bet their money on it, in a most literal way. They even called themselves the "Two Witnesses" of the Apocalypse of John.
The purpose of THE "REPORT" document can best be described in the following words spoken at Ezekiel 21:6, 7 which says: "And as for you, O son of man, sigh with shaking hips. Even with bitterness you should sigh before their eyes. And it must occur that, in case they say to you, 'On account of what are you sighing?' you must say, "At a report." 2
"The 'Report'" is a moral indictment against the Watchtower, and as it turns out, a prophecy regarding them, supposedly backed by Jehovah God himself. Perhaps even a new "faithful and discreet slave" in the works? Unlike the Franz Incident at Bethel in 1980 and other recent forms of dissent in Watchtower history, these authors are attempting to salvage the Watchtower and even declare judgement from God on the powers that be, until only those whom God chose as leaders would be fit to run God's one true organization. Shades of Joe Rutherford! (This stands in stark contrast to those of us who left Bethel in 1980, none of which has desired to return, start our own religion or denomination, or even desired to do so.)
Were it not for the small footprint of these "Two Witnesses," one might think they pose a formidable threat to the Watchtower leadership. Yet their main web page showed only 5642 visitors since early 1997 (a little over a month's number of visitors for the Free Minds, Inc. website). Yet "The 'Report'" is available from some major bookstores across the country, something Free Minds, Inc. cannot match. Clearly some money has been spent to get this message out. This is a direct threat to the powers that be, a true "apostasy" from the direction of the Governing Body and Service Dept. of the Watchtower.
The writers of "The 'Report'" (who still mirror the mock-humility of the Governing Body in writing a book and refusing to sign their name) declare that God will shortly visit his judgements on this modern Israel of God, namely Jehovah's Witnesses:
Therefore, we say, if the things written about in this document come to pass, and if they come true as they are written in this document, then it could only have happened by the "Hand of God." It would be supernatural intervention. It would have to be considered, an Act of God.— Isaiah 30:26 3
The most obvious question to ask at this point is, "Why, if they believe that the Watchtower organization has become corrupt, do they still believe it is comprised of God's only true people?" "The 'Report'" website responds with a series of FAQs (Frequently Asked Questions) and their answers. They answer the question as follows:
The following characteristics distinguish [Jehovah's Witnesses] as modern-day Israel:
1) Called by God's Personal Name
2) Monotheistic (nontrinitarian)
3) Iconoclastic (no images) 4
Not satisfied with the Governing Body's list of requirements for identifying God's people, the "Two Witnesses" form their own list of requirements and add, "...it is the 'framework of Truth' that differentiates them from all other religions on the face of the earth today." 5
Possessing the only true faith is not enough, sayeth the Two Witnesses, since Jehovah God will not tolerate the commercialism, disobedience and twisting of the scriptures as practiced by the current leadership. The Governing Body, yes, ALL Jehovah's Witnesses must repent and yet still expect persecution in the near future by the hands of God (note the WT writing style):
Yes, these things are now being revealed because Jehovah God has now ordained a "measuring" period to begin upon these wicked, villianous characters who lead this organization of God's Name People, called Jehovah's Witnesses. And after such a "measuring" period, Oh, how they resemble their first century counterparts, the Pharisees and Sadducees! After such a "measuring," it becomes quite clear that there is a need, a REAL NEED for someone to do something. Someone to say something. Someone to act, boldly, in Jehovah's Name. And someone will. Jehovah will "cause" as the Scriptures say, His "Two Witnesses" to speak or "witness." Yes, the beginning of the movement the Bible calls, the "Two Witnesses." And their ministry will indeed place the issue of deception concerning 1914, and other issues, squarely before each and every Jehovah's Witness on earth today, as modern-day Israel. We can know this because it is Jehovah God Himself, the Almighty, who has "caused" such witnessing to happen in the first place. Think about it. -- See Revelation 11:3 6
According to "The ‘Report,‘" Jehovah's Witnesses will have to decide between the current leadership and Jehovah, and it even gives a timetable of events (scriptural, of course):
And after the 3 1/2 year ministry of the "Two Witnesses" has been complete -- then, and only then, will greater acts of "discipline" be administered by the "God of Truth." (Psalms 31:5) These greater acts will handled by Jehovah God Himself, in His allowing the political nations to overrun His People and render them completely powerless before their enemies. This has happened before in years past to disobedient "Israel." And it will happen again to modern-day "Israel" of our day. This Divine Discipline, upon the nation of Jehovah's Witnesses, will be administered before a worldwide audience for a particularly difficult and trying time of some "42-months," a specific period of time of discipline. Many prophecies testify to this coming judgment upon modern-day "Israel." -- Ezekiel 36:33-36; Daniel 7:25; Daniel 12:7; Revelation 11:2; 12:13, 14; 13:5-7 7
Jehovah then rages against his organization. What must they do to be saved from his anger? "Get the Report."
Jehovah now demonstrates "rage" upon His "adversaries," His Own Name People. God's People must "understand what has been heard [Ref. NWT fnt. "the report"]. Yes, they must "understand" the "Report," the "thing heard." -- Isa 28:17-19; Jeremiah 23:19, 20.
Finally, after the "rage," and other disciplinary actions upon His part, Jehovah has thus, taken matters into His Own hands. He brings about what He deems, "necessary" action or "discipline" to cleanse the nation of the wrongdoing or "practiced" sin. This "discipline" could take many forms, like famine, pestilence, being overrun by nearby enemy nations temporarily, or even having their "temple" destroyed and being led into captivity and re-deposited upon foreign soil. Whatever it takes to deal with the situation -- Jehovah now at "war" with His Own People, administering "discipline" as a "father" would upon his "sons," just as the Mosaic Law outlined He would do in keeping HIS end of the Covenant or contract. After which, if His people are "repentant," then he "restores" them. In this way, Jehovah "FIXES IT." -- Please consider Isaiah 30:26; Micah 4:6, 7; 1 Kings 8:46-52; Hebrews 12:5-13. 8
One suspects at this point that there are politics hidden just beneath the sheets. First of all, the "Two Witnesses," whoever they are in human form, are apparently so overwhelmed by the visual organization's scholarship over the last 100 years that they consider it to be Jehovah's own "framework of Truth," while simultaneously accusing the Governing Body of gross idolatry by putting the "organization" to the fore. They deny the necessity of the door-to-door work as the main way of preaching their message (something the current leadership will no doubt use against them). They oppose the idolatry of the "organization" concept (which begs the question, "What would replace it?). They oppose the emphasis on chronology and 1914, and they oppose the practice of shunning those who are disassociated or disfellowshipped. Apostasy is considered largely a future event, rather than a condition found in dissenting individuals (2 Thes. 2:3).
Perhaps they will continue to research the Watchtower's "framework of Truth" in the days ahead, and discover their complete lack of understanding of historical Christianity. More importantly, I would hope that they focus on the message of grace and forgiveness of Jesus Christ. What happened to many of us at Bethel in 1979-1980 was proof that even the "Two Witnesses" might see Christianity in a different light.
Just wondering, are the writers of "The Report" still "false prophets"?
Well, if they, in 1994, predicted something (the WTS supporting the UN) that had already started happening, in 1991, in what way is this any kind of prophecy?
Good point, Seeker.
Then the writers of "The Report" would be reporters and not prophets.
Valid distinction.
waiting
Seeker,
My question to you is this: Did anyone else after reading the 9/8/91 article in the Awake magazine conclude the following: "Believe it or not, this is the very first article of its kind on the vital subject of the United Nations Organization. But it will probably not be the last?" (The Report, page 211)
If you read that article, what conclusions did you reach? The Report continues: "The September 8, 1991 Awake! article on the UN is a miserable and totally untenable display of cowardice! - 2 Timothy 1:7. Ask yourself: Could such a display of cowardice as demonstrated by this article be a promise of what is to come? "What things to come?" you may say. Well, let's notice Daniel 11:32 which says: "And those who are acting wickedly against the covenant, he [King of the North] will lead into apostasy by means of smooth words." Though this powerful Kng of the North has not prevailed upon the Watchtower as yet, could this article give us a small clue of what is to happen when he does arrive on the earthly scene? Does it? Could this be a demonstration of the unhealthy influence that the United Nations Organization has over the fear-struck Zedekiah-like Watchtower Society? Could the United Nations Organization have already taken some hidden action or made some threatening demands upon the Watchtower Society precipitating this new softened message?"
The writers may not have known about the NGO situation, but they were well aware back in 1991 (the date that this information was written) that something that had never happened before was going on between the WT and the UN based on that article.
No, they were not reporting anything. They were writing about the implications of such an article and its effect upon readers of the Awake!, a magazine that had previously written articles condemning the UN.
The information concerning the fulfillment of bible prophecy is what is prophetic. Will what the Report predicts concerning the future of the WTS come true? Will the WTS tell the R&F that the UN is not the 'disgusting thing' that Jesus spoke about? You can make your decision when and if this occurs as to whether they have correctly prophesied concerning this organization.
bjc
Hello Bjc,
these lines to thank you for your comment:
"Will the WTS tell the R&F that the UN is not the 'disgusting thing' that Jesus spoke about? You can make your decision when and if this occurs as to whether they have correctly prophesied concerning this organization."
The future will show us..!
Greetings, J.C.MacHislopp
" One who has an accurate knowledge
of God's Word will have no problem
in refuting false religious ideas".
First, I was quite surprised to see a post that I made back in June was listed here under my former name of OrangeBlossom. I don't mind, just curious as to how it was done.
bjc asked, "Just wondering, are the writers of "The Report" still "false prophets"?"
I don't know the answer to that one, but I would say they got one right. Actually, there were about 8 different points that were brought out that caught my eye. The big one for me had to do with the door to door ministry. It discussed what Paul and Jesus really meant about doing the preaching work. Being someone who always HATED the door-to-door work, I lost my guilt over hating it.
Another point brought out had to do with the finances of the society, the building work, the donation arrangement, etc. That had always struck a nerve with me.
I don't have the book any longer so I can't recall much more. As I mentioned earlier, I didn't buy into their prophecy but I didn't discount either much of what was said.
If I am not mistaken, I think their website got shut down, by whom I don't know.
"By doubting we come at truth" -Cicero
When I posted this thread there was no idea of the NGO status of WT. It appears this issue has been clarified as to why the WT wants to be happy with the UN. The Question that comes to my mind is why do they still continue to condemn the UN? In the lastest Isaiah Book they rip the UN up one side and down the other. They show pictures of the pope at the UN and other religions being associated. Could there be an internal discord within the GB as to how the UN should be treated? One side the F Franz camp who thinks it is the beast to bring the end of the world and the other side who basically does not agree and sees the advantage of using the UN to get the WT religious status (more money) in other countries. As with many issues of the GB they quietly disagree and continue in two differant directions. If this be the case then it may have caught up with them for not "being of one mind and speaking in agreement". How will the two camps reconcile if this is the way it is? Will the GB split and go differant directions? Time will tell.
Why not post all those quotes in the Isaiah book you just mentioned Messenger?
hawk
