Was Jesus the first creation of God ?

by enquirer 117 Replies latest watchtower bible

JosephMalik

Throughout the Scriptures, repeatedly there is mentioned "The Angel of Yahweh", and this Angel calls Himself YHWH, presents Himself as YHWH, accepts worship as YHWH, receives prayers as YHWH, and accepts sacrifices as YHWH. Salvation and Redemption is attributed to this Angel
Undisfellowshipped,
You still do not get it do you? Your arguments support my views and not yours. Authority can and is delegated by YHWH as if performed by Him personally. Even that name, the personal name of YHWH can be used by such angels when such authority is given. Worship given to such angels is not considered wrong in such cases since the true nature of such worship, the reality of such worship is understood. This is context that is discernable even if not stated in the text. Angels that appeared as humans that did not have the authority of YHWH sinned and were condemned never to appear in human form again and caused a flood that destroyed their offspring. But not all angels sinned in this way did they? Many appeared as humans since then that had the authorization of YHWH to do so. They continued to function even in such human form. The Logos that was with YHWH was given the authority to create man and was permitted to be God to mankind as a result. This is a position of authority over mankind which is basically what the term God means, not some identification of a Supreme Being as Trinitarians teach. This word God has such use in scripture and is even used for men such as Moses. Trinitarians do not understand this truth. Trinitarians have managed to corrupt such fundamental teaching of scripture, have corrupted basic definitions of words such as God, heaven soul, hell, immortality and such and have defiled the faith as a result.
Joseph
UnDisfellowshipped

Joseph,
Why have you never responded to my question about Isaiah 44:24?
Isaiah 48:11: [...] I will not give My glory to another.
Isaiah 42:8: I am YHWH: that is My Name: and I will not give My glory to another [...]
John 5:23: That all men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He that does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who has sent Him.
Revelation 22:8-9: Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things. Then he said to me, "See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God."
Hebrews 1:6: And again, when He brings in the Firstborn into the world, He says, "And let all the angels of God worship Him."
JosephMalik

Undisfellowshipped,
I have responded over and over again but it does no good. You cannot grasp the context in which such verses are given. So I explained it all in plain english and still nothing happens. So be it.
Joseph]
UnDisfellowshipped

Joseph,
Over and over again, the Holy Scriptures warn against worshiping angels and humans.
Over and over again, the Holy Scriptures show that Jesus Christ (while on earth and in Heaven) accepted worship as God.
_______________________________________________________
Over and over again, the Holy Scriptures show that YHWH (Jehovah) God created all things alone, all by Himself with no helpers.
Over and over again, the Holy Scriptures show that The Logos (The Word) created all things, and not one thing was ever created without Him.
A Paduan

I understand it quite well. You have no verse that teaches the trinity period

I may make no industry that teaches it to you - nor would I expect to 'prove' it to you n that sense, nor can you convince me otherwise with any "perfectly proper interpretations".
Blessed are you......as flesh and blood has not revealed this to you.
zen nudist

several times I have made this point and it has never been answered properly... lets try again...
words are pointers to experiences, without understanding the experience, the words can only reflect the readers bias...
so the bible gives us visionary experiences which we can use its words to understand....
what do the visions show in regard to heaven, God, trinity or no? lets see...
first vision Daniel.
We find a heavens filled with angelic beings ministering to ONE seated upon a throne as the Ancient of Days... this is the mental image that jews to this day still hold, no?
we are told that someone from amoung man, a SON of man, is GRANTED access to this one to receive the authority over the kingdoms of the earth... this is also the standard jewish view, the messiah would be a man who God choses from the seed of david [which of course means it could not be Jesus, since he was not made from human seed]
the important point to consider is that NO trinity exists here...no three persons as one God is seen, nor implied.
******************
vision #2
******************
when Stephen was being stoned to death he looked into heaven and was given a vision of Jesus standing at the right hand of GOD...
plain and simple, he saw no third person.
and he only identified ONE as GOD, the ONE Jesus was WITH.
********************
vision #3
*********************
in the book of Revelations we are given a vision of ONE seated upon a throne called THE LORD GOD ALMIGHTY, the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.... and we are shown that another approaches the throne to RECEIVE the scroll, the only one worthy in heaven and earth to do so, but we are clearly shown this OTHER is not GOD, but instead, the LAMB, the LION of JUDAH, Jesus...etc.
there is NO person representing the holy spirit, but rather, count them, SEVEN bowls of FIRE, matching the impersonal IT nature of spirit, as opposed and in contrast to a FATHER and a SON....
*******************************************************************
conclusion, you are wrapping your words around NO experiences found in the bible if you try to see a trinity behind them...there is NO such thing found anywhere in the bible... the bible gives the images behind the words, look at them for yourself....see where the words point.
trinitarians use OUT of CONTEXT verses which do not point to THESE clear experiences.
UnDisfellowshipped

Joseph Malik said:
There is nothing wrong with my work even though some of it is speculative and based upon observation more than text.
Does the Bible agree with you? Lets see:
Revelation 22: 18-19: For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Deuteronomy 4:2: You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
Proverbs 30:6: Do not add to His words, Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.
Matthew 15:9: And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.' "
Galatians 1:8-9: But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
2nd Corinthians 11: 4: For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted--you may well put up with it!
1st Corinthians 2: 4-5: And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
UnDisfellowshipped

Zen Nudist said:
when Stephen was being stoned to death he looked into heaven and was given a vision of Jesus standing at the right hand of GOD...
plain and simple, he saw no third person.and he only identified ONE as GOD, the ONE Jesus was WITH.
Acts 7: 55-60: But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, and said, "Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!" Then they cried out with a loud voice, stopped their ears, and ran at him with one accord; and they cast him out of the city and stoned him. And the witnesses laid down their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul. And they stoned Stephen as he was calling and saying, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not charge them with this sin." And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
Notice that The Trinity is indeed mentioned together in those Verses about Stephen.
The reason why Stephen did not see a vision of The Holy Spirit is because The Holy Spirit does NOT glorify Himself, but He glorifies The Father and The Son as Jesus said He would in John Chapter 16:
John 15:16-17: And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever-- the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
John 16:13-15: However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.
Then, in the vision in Revelation:
Revelation 5:6-7: And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth. Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.
We there see a vision of The Trinity, however, notice that The Holy Spirit has been "sent out into all the earth", and that is another reason why The Spirit is not always seen in visions, because The Spirit is shown to be symbolically on the earth, and not in Heaven (even though The Spirit is truly omnipresent).
Also, back to Stephen's vision:
Stephen, being filled with The Spirit, sees a vision of God The Father on His throne, and then He sees Jesus next to Him.
Who does Stephen decide to pray to -- to speak his last words to -- to give his spirit to -- to ask for forgiveness for others -- to make his last requests to?
Stephen chose to pray to JESUS!
Also, in Revelation Chapter 5, The Lamb receives EQUAL honor, praise, glory, and WORSHIP with God The Father!
Do you want examples of The Holy Trinity being praised or invoked together in the Bible? Here are some:
2nd Corinthians 13:14 : The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen.
Matthew 28:19: Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Revelation 1: 4-5: John, to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. [...] Ephesians 2:18: For through Him [Jesus] we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
Hebrews 9:14: how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? Matthew 3:16-17: When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." Do you want me to post more Verses that show the Holy Trinity?
zen nudist

Stephen, being filled with The Spirit, sees a vision of God The Father on His throne, and then He sees Jesus next to Him.

here is an interesting mental game you trinitarians play but fail to notice... you ASSUME that GOD alone means GOD the FATHER, why?
the TEXT says Jesus and GOD and not THE FATHER....
here is why you do it... the NT has over 100 instance where Jesus and GOD, not the father, is mentioned together...and but assuming it means the father you avoid the obvious, that your GOD cannot be a trinity.... since Jesus is always shown in relationship to GOD...which presumably is the trinity, not just the father. we never find the construct GOD and THE FATHER, now do we? or GOD and the holy spirit?
why? because GOD with anyone is always the FATHER, right?
to us there is but ONE GOD....who? 1 cor 8:5-6
with you father, the ONLY TRUE GOD [Jesus in John 17:3]
tell my brothers that I ascend to my GOD and your GOD, my father and your father [Jesus to Mary Mag.]
there is one mediator between GOD and MAN, the MAN, Jesus [Paul]
GOD has over looked the times of ignorance and has APPOINTED a MAN....Jesus...[Paul to the pagans in the areopogus Acts 17]
GOD has subject all things [with the exception of himself] to Jesus.... when all things have been made perfect, Jesus will submit himself and all that was given to him back to GOD so that as in the beginning, God can once again be all things to everyone [Paul--a truly idiotic and stupid thing to teach if Jesus is God, no?]
Again, the visions are clear, they give all words in the bible a foundation which is hard to evade unless you demand your belief take presidence over them...which clearly all trinitarians must.... they are taught the 3 headed monster by the distorted teachings outside the bible then they, having this FALSE vision in their heads, see the words of the bible in relation to them, ignoring the clear visions found in the bible in doing so.... cast out the distorted fantasy trinity and embrace the visions found in the bible and the three headed dragon will vanish.
UnDisfellowshipped

Zen Nudist said these statements about the Trinity:
the 3 headed monster [...] the three headed dragon
Zen Nudist called God Almighty a "three-headed dragon".
Zen Nudist also said:
here is an interesting mental game you trinitarians play but fail to notice... you ASSUME that GOD alone means GOD the FATHER, why?
the TEXT says Jesus and GOD and not THE FATHER....
here is why you do it... the NT has over 100 instance where Jesus and GOD, not the father, is mentioned together...and but assuming it means the father you avoid the obvious, that your GOD cannot be a trinity.... since Jesus is always shown in relationship to GOD...which presumably is the trinity, not just the father. we never find the construct GOD and THE FATHER, now do we? or GOD and the holy spirit?
The Father is The God of Jesus. That is why The Father is called God when The Father and Son are spoken of in the same Verses.
Jesus is indeed called "God" and "LORD" and "Creator of Heaven and Earth" by The Father Himself in Hebrews Chapter 1: Hebrews 1:8-10: But to the Son He says: " Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions." And: " You, L ORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands. Also notice these two Verses in John and 1st John: John 1:1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Then go to 1st John 1:1-3 to find out WHO the God was that The Word was WITH: 1st John 1:1-3: T hat which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life--the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us--that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. The Bible explains itself. In order to understand John 1:1, all you have to do is read 1st John 1:1-3, to find out that The Word [Jesus] was WITH God The Father and that The Word was God The Son. Zen Nudist said:
why? because GOD with anyone is always the FATHER, right?
The Father is indeed God. But His Son is also our God, as the following Scriptures (IN CONTEXT) show very clearly: 1st Timothy 3:16: And confessedly, great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the Flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the Gentiles, believed on in the world, and was received up in glory. Philippians 2:5-11: Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, existing in the Form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a slave, and coming to be in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a Man, He humbled Himself, becoming obedient unto death, even the death of the Cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him, and has graciously given Him a Name which is above every name, that at the Name of Jesus every knee may bow, of those in Heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue may confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. John 20:27-29: Then He said to Thomas, "Bring your finger here, and see My hands; and bring your hand here, and put it into My side. Be not unbelieving, but believing." And Thomas answered and said to Him, "The Lord of me and the God of me!" Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." Titus 2:13-14: looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our Great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself a people as His own possession, zealous for good works. 2nd Peter 1:1: Simon Peter, a slave and Apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ Romans 9:5: of whom are the fathers and from whom Christ came, according to the Flesh, He who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen. Zen Nudist said:
to us there is but ONE GOD....who? 1 cor 8:5-6
with you father, the ONLY TRUE GOD [Jesus in John 17:3]
Yes, there is only One God.
That very same Scripture ALSO SAYS that there is ONLY ONE LORD for us, Jesus Christ!
Does that exclude The Father from also being our Lord? Definitely NOT! According to the Bible both The Father AND The Son are The One True Lord!
In the exact same way, the Bible shows that both The Father AND The Son are The One True God!
Also, the Bible does say (at John 17:3) that The Father is The Only True God. But, in the Book of 1st John, it says that JESUS is "The Only True God":
1st John 5:20: And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is True; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. He is the True God and Eternal Life.
Also, 1st Timothy Chapter 1 says that Jesus is God:
1st Timothy 1:14-17: And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
Then, in 1st Timothy Chapter 6, it says that Jesus is The Only Immortal One and The Only Potentate, does that mean that The Father is excluded from being Immortal and that The Father is excluded from being our Potentate?
1st Timothy 6: 14-16: that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing, which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.
Zen Nudist said:
tell my brothers that I ascend to my GOD and your GOD, my father and your father [Jesus to Mary Mag.]
there is one mediator between GOD and MAN, the MAN, Jesus [Paul]
GOD has over looked the times of ignorance and has APPOINTED a MAN....Jesus...[Paul to the pagans in the areopogus Acts 17]
I agree 100% that Jesus was a Man, The Perfect Human Being. He was absolutely 100% Human (without sin).
But the truth that you fail to grasp is that Jesus was also 100% God.
He was and is 100% Human and 100% God.
As a Human, The Father was and is Jesus Christ's God. Jesus prayed to Him as His God and worships Him as His God and is in subjection to Him as His God.
Zen Nudist said:
GOD has subject all things [with the exception of himself] to Jesus.... when all things have been made perfect, Jesus will submit himself and all that was given to him back to GOD so that as in the beginning, God can once again be all things to everyone [Paul--a truly idiotic and stupid thing to teach if Jesus is God, no?]
True, Jesus will give back "The Kingdom" to The Father. However, we must look at the entire Bible to understand just what this "Kingdom" is.
This "Kingdom" must be Christ's Mediatorship and Priesthood (which The Father gave Jesus), because Jesus Christ's Kingdom is Eternal and Everlasting and He will rule as The King of The Kingdom forever and ever according to several other Verses:
Luke 1: 32-33: He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end."
Daniel 2:44: And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.
Daniel 7: 14: Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His kingdom the one which shall not be destroyed.
Hebrews 1:8: But to the Son He says: " Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
Also, the Book of Revelation shows that The Father and The Son have EQUAL authority over all of God's people:
Revelation 11:15: Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"
Revelation 20:6: Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
Revelation 21: 22-23: But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light.
Revelation 22:1-3: A nd he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him.
Revelation 5: 8-14: Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song, saying: " You are worthy to take the scroll, and to open its seals; for You were slain, and have redeemed us to God by Your blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and have made us kings and priests to our God; and we shall reign on the earth." Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice: " Worthy is the Lamb who was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom, and strength and honor and glory and blessing!" And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: " Blessing and honor and glory and power be to Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, forever and ever!" Then the four living creatures said, "Amen!" And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever.

Was Jesus the first creation of God ?

Share this