Was Jesus the first creation of God ?

by enquirer 117 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  JosephMalik

  Paduan said: To continue on the same basis on which my accepted meaning was called to account - do you have a copy that actually says "Jesus" - not 'master'.

  Paduan,

  The King James or Authorized Version as it is also called says:

  Matt 23:8 (AV) But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

  Where you put Spirit in verse 8 the AV puts Christ. Are you saying that Jesus is not the Christ in this text? Here is your accepted version again:

  Paduan said: But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher

  (the Spirit), and you are all brethren.

  And here is the Strong?s definition of Rabbi:

  AV-Master (Christ) 9, Rabbi (Christ) 5, rabbi 3; 17

  1) my great one, my honourable sir

  2) Rabbi, a title used by the Jews to address their teachers (and also honour them when not addressing them)

  Rabbi, Master, Christ represent proper use of this word, but adding Sprit is not. You have no support for your view. Other verses have their own context in which they are to be understood but not this one and it should not be mixed in with this verse as you did in this thread.

  You have no proof for the trinity doctrine, not here or anywhere else in scripture. That is what you intended to do with this verse and failed.

  Joseph
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  A Paduan

  As I was saying, there is no copy that says "Jesus"

  It seems that you have looked to original conveyance, which as you state shows "Rabbi" which in our language translates as a "teacher"

  "..even Christ" is "even the annointed one"

  I stand on what I have said - there's no verse that says "Jesus" and the annointing is that of the Spirit, to the one who is Teacher.

  "y ou have one Teacher, even Christ", who says, "Call no man on earth Teacher".

  If you can't understand it, I'm sorry.
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  JosephMalik

  I stand on what I have said - there's no verse that says "Jesus" and the annointing is that of the Spirit, to the one who is Teacher.

  "y ou have one Teacher, even Christ", who says, "Call no man on earth Teacher".

  Paduan,

  I understand it quite well. You have no verse that teaches the trinity period, as you implied when you brought up this text.

  As for the annointed, the expression Spirit in that text is not a reference to another person that makes up the trinity. It is perfectly proper to call Christ teacher as He is excluded from the comment made by Him. And Jesus is the Christ in this verse as stated earlier and as shown in the KJV.

  Joseph
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  UnDisfellowshipped

  I am going to post some of Joseph Malik's quotes from a different Thread (the "Michael the Archangel" Thread), and then I'm going to comment on his beliefs:

  "The Son [Jesus] did not do any of this [creation of the literal Heavens and Earth]. Only the LORD (Yahweh) did and yahweh is not the name of the Son or the Logos. ... But things like human beings and animals are another matter. Who created them? Beings only identified as 'us' in Genesis. The Logos [the Pre-Human Jesus] created man and had authority over man. Such things were delegated to others. Does no one ever wonder why Satan took the form of a serpent? Could it not be that this Satan had something to do with the creation of such animal life and had authority over them as well?" - Joseph Malik, from JWD

  "How much of this [creation] did God do personally and how much was delegated by Him? Just who were the us that assisted with such projects? Some scriptures provide such detail such as the ones in John chapter 1 and some do not. So can you show exactly who such participants were and their specific roles? Of course all credit goes to God or Yahweh. But we also know that the Logos actually did create man when he was with God and had authority over man. What better Being to select for mans redemption than this Logos that did such work in the beginning?" - Joseph Malik, from JWD

  "The creation of such large objects [the literal Heavens and Earth] was done by God alone, but the little things like mankind that would live on this earth was delegated to the Logos to do this for Him. And others like the Being that became Satan were also involved in some way in all this." - Joseph Malik, from JWD

  "Not every single act of creation was performed/or delivered by God personally." - Joseph Malik, from JWD

  "The heavens and the earth were created by Him (God) alone. That much we know. Much of the rest of creation was delegated" - Joseph Malik, from JWD

  MY COMMENTS ON THIS TEACHING:

  Notice, Joseph Malik denies that Jesus created the literal Heavens and the literal Earth. Joseph Malik claims that only the Father created the literal Heavens and Earth. Joseph Malik also claims that only the Pre-Human Jesus created humans, and God The Father DID NOT create humans. Joseph also claims that the angel who became Satan created some animals, including the serpent.

  No where in the Bible does it say that Satan ever created anything (except for the original sins).

  In fact, that is completely against what the Bible says about who created everything.

  The Bible says that Yahweh God Almighty created all things alone all by Himself! He created ALL of the things inside the earth and ALL of the things inside Heaven:

  Isaiah 44:24: Thus says Yahweh, your Redeemer, and He who formed you from the womb: I am Yahweh, who makes all things; who stretches forth the Heavens alone; who spreads abroad the Earth -- who is with Me?

  Nehemiah 9:6: You are Yahweh, even You alone; You have made Heaven, the Heaven of Heavens, with all their Army, the Earth and all things that are on it, the seas and all that is in them, and You preserve them all; and the Army of Heaven worships You.

  Revelation 4:11: "Worthy are You, our Lord and God, the Holy One, to receive the glory, the honor, and the power, for You created all things, and because of Your desire they existed, and were created!"

  Revelation 10:5-6: The angel who I saw standing on the sea and on the land lifted up his right hand to the sky, and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created Heaven and the things that are in it, the Earth and the things that are in it, and the sea and the things that are in it...

  The Bible says that Yahweh [Jehovah] the Supreme Being created all of the animals:

  Genesis 1:20-25: God said, "Let the waters swarm with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the Earth in the open expanse of sky." God created the large sea creatures, and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed, after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind. God saw that it was good. God blessed them, saying, "Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the Earth." There was evening and there was morning, a fifth day. God said, "Let the Earth bring forth living creatures after their kind, cattle, creeping things, and animals of the Earth after their kind," and it was so. God made the animals of the Earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind. God saw that it was good.

  Genesis 2:19: Out of the ground Yahweh God formed every animal of the field, and every bird of the sky...

  The Bible also says that Jesus Christ created all things:

  John 1:3: All things were made through Him [The Word]. Without Him not one thing was made that has been made.

  Colossians 1:16: For by Him [Jesus Christ] all things were created, in the Heavens and on the Earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through Him, and for Him.

  Ephesians 3:9: ...God... created all things through Jesus Christ...

  Therefore, Jesus is Yahweh, OR Yahweh lied in Isaiah 44:24.
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  UnDisfellowshipped

  Joseph Malik,

  I challenge you to refute my Trinity Thread found here:

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/69282/1.ashx
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  Utopian_Raindrops

  http://groups.msn.com/GoddessAwareChristianWomen/wisdomthedivinefeminineaspect.msnw
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  JosephMalik

  Undisfellowshipped,

  There is nothing wrong with my work even though some of it is speculative and based upon observation more than text. It is intended to stimulate thinking and challenge the distorted views Trinitarians are teaching today. The problem with Trinitarians is that they have a poor sense of context and do not grasp how creative authority was delegated. Angels transmitted information to man using the personal name of God as if they were God in person and yet we should have understood that it was done in this way. So even if Jesus said that He was YHWH we should not say this proves that he was God in person. Such fundamentals are ignored. The word God and its uses itself is not properly understood as even Satan is god of this world. Scripture is worked backwards instead of forwards, not building on root texts such as this. Context itself while invisible is also discernable but only if it is not mixed up with distorted views.

  Joseph
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  UnDisfellowshipped

  Joseph Malik said:

  Angels transmitted information to man using the personal name of God as if they were God in person and yet we should have understood that it was done in this way.

  There was only one "Angel" who ever used the Personal Name of God as if He was God. And the reason for this is because this "Angel" WAS GOD [YHWH] Himself!

  This "Angel" is "THE Angel of Yahweh" -- The Angel who has God's Name inside of Him -- The Personal Messenger of Yahweh -- The Commander of The Army of Yahweh -- The Messenger of The Covenant -- The Logos!

  This "Angel" received worship as God and also received sacrifices and prayers! Salvation is attributed to this one "Angel".

  Joseph Malik said:

  So even if Jesus said that He was YHWH we should not say this proves that he was God in person.

  So, there you have it, folks. Even if Jesus Christ were to appear to Joseph Malik (like He did with Paul) and to declare that He was YHWH Himself, Joseph Malik would not believe it. Joseph would still believe that Jesus is some sort of inferior, created, lesser being than The Father.

  Joseph, can you answer one simple question for me?

  Did YHWH create ALL things BY HIMSELF and ALONE as YHWH Himself says in Isaiah 44:24, or did He delegate some of creation to others?

  If YHWH delegated some of creation to others, then that means YHWH lied in Isaiah 44:24.
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  JosephMalik

  There was only one "Angel" who ever used the Personal Name of God as if He was God. And the reason for this is because this "Angel" WAS GOD [YHWH] Himself!

  Undisfellowshipped,

  Now I have heard it all. Thanks for proving my point. And that goes for the rest of your ravings. Take a good look folks. This is a good as it gets.

  Joseph
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  UnDisfellowshipped

  Joseph Malik,
  

  Throughout the Scriptures, repeatedly there is mentioned "The Angel of Yahweh", and this Angel calls Himself YHWH, presents Himself as YHWH, accepts worship as YHWH, receives prayers as YHWH, and accepts sacrifices as YHWH. Salvation and Redemption is attributed to this Angel. Isaiah 63:9: In all their affliction He was afflicted, and the Angel of His Presence saved them; in His love and in His pity He redeemed them; and He bore them and carried them all the days of old.

  Genesis 48:16: The Angel who has redeemed me from all evil, Bless the lads; Let my name be named upon them, And the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; And let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth." Exodus 23: 20-23: "Behold, I send an Angel before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. Beware of Him and obey His voice; do not provoke Him, for He will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in Him. But if you indeed obey His voice and do all that I speak, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries. For My Angel will go before you and bring you in to the Amorites and the Hittites and the Perizzites and the Canaanites and the Hivites and the Jebusites; and I will cut them off. Joshua 5: 13-15: And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, a Man stood opposite him with His sword drawn in His hand. And Joshua went to Him and said to Him, "Are You for us or for our adversaries?" So He said, "No, but as Commander of the army of the LORD I have now come." And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped, and said to Him, "What does my Lord say to His servant?" Then the Commander of the LORD's army said to Joshua, "Take your sandal off your foot, for the place where you stand is holy." And Joshua did so. Judges 13:19-23: So Manoah took the young goat with the grain offering, and offered it upon the rock to the LORD. And He did a wondrous thing while Manoah and his wife looked on--it happened as the flame went up toward heaven from the altar--the Angel of the L ORD ascended in the flame of the altar! When Manoah and his wife saw this, they fell on their faces to the ground. When the Angel of the L ORD appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the L ORD . And Manoah said to his wife, "We shall surely die, because we have seen God!" But his wife said to him, "If the L ORD had desired to kill us, He would not have accepted a burnt offering and a grain offering from our hands, nor would He have shown us all these things, nor would He have told us such things as these at this time." Notice these points from Judges 13: 1: Manoah offered a sacrifice to The Angel of YHWH. 2: The Angel accepted the sacrifice as YHWH. 3: Manoah then KNEW that this was The ANGEL of YHWH. 4: Manoah then says that he will die because he has SEEN GOD ALMIGHTY HIMSELF! 5: Manoah's wife then says that they offered the sacrifice to YHWH (who was the ANGEL!) Hosea 1:7: Yet I will have mercy on the house of Judah, Will save them by the LORD their God, And will not save them by bow, Nor by sword or battle, By horses or horsemen." (That was YHWH speaking saying that He was going to save them BY YHWH their God, a different Person named YHWH!)

  If this Angel is not God, then he is a demon, for the simple Scriptural fact that NO ONE, not angels, not men, can accept worship and glory as YHWH without being a satanic blasphemer.