Was Jesus the first creation of God ? (page 10)

LittleToe

Sirona:
You're right, it's the subject for another thread

Zen:
Are you so blinded by the fear that this thread may cause you to accede to a single point, that may be deemed Trinitarian, that you cannot see the wood for the trees? Please, try taking off the anti-trinitarian glassses for a moment, and re-read what I posted. Please.
The clarity, of which you speak, is not evident at all. Were it so there would be no dissention.

UnDF'ed:

Eventually, throughout the ages, when humans started filling the earth and living in different parts of the world, this prophecy, no doubt due to Satan, was altered and perverted and corrupted to fit in with the various Pagan religions.

My JW-speak radar has just been triggered by your use of the phrase "no doubt", my friend. Your hypothesis is based on several weak assumptions, any one of which can have serious holes picked in it:

Human's can't "pervert" things all on their own
The account of Genesis regarding the cradle of humanity, and events recorded, occurred as interpreted
That "emnity between seeds" was specific enough to bring forth a whole theology
That other cultures "theologies" were antedated to the Christian one
That "Satan" knew the eternal counsels of "God"

zen nudist

Do you mind if I ask you some questions?

not at all.

Who do you believe Jesus was? Do you believe He even existed?

I believe that the Jesus of the bible was a gnostic invention, a teaching tool, a myth and that HE never existed. see www.jesusneverexisted.com

Do you believe He was an angel? Do you believe He was Michael?

n/a

Do you believe that He had a pre-existence in Heaven before being born on earth?

n/a

Do you believe that He was only a "good teacher"?

n/a

Do you believe that He was simply another Prophet?

n/a

Do you believe that He was a human upon whom the "Christ Consciousness" came?

n/a

Do you believe that He is just a myth?

yes... I believe that he was a jewish version of the very ancient often told godman savior story found in many cultures around the globe. see PAGAN CHRISTS, THE GOLDEN BOUGH, THE HERO WITH A THOUSAND FACES, etc.

What do YOU believe about Jesus?

I believe the teachings were flawed, they unintentionally, perhaps, promote violence and hatred by teaching that ideas are more important than the people who hold them, and that those with the wrong ones will be burned as weeds in the fire, turned to outer darkness as goats, to weep and gnash their teeth, be damned to gehenna, etc... leading to the concept of the JUST WAR--st augustine... following the words-- those who did not wish me as their king, bring them before me and slaughter them--Luke 19:27

Who do YOU say that Jesus is?

not who, but what... a symbol, an ideal, a myth, a legend, a teaching tool

Do you believe in the Bible? Do you believe that it is the Inspired Word of God?

I believe the bible is jewish mythology no better than any other cultural traditions in some ways, just as vile in others...such as justifying war crimes -- numbers 31, and the murder of ones who children who cannot be brainwashed -- Duet 21

Do you believe that Christ died for our sins and was raised up the third day?

n/a

zen nudist

Zen:
Are you so blinded by the fear that this thread may cause you to accede to a single point, that may be deemed Trinitarian, that you cannot see the wood for the trees? Please, try taking off the anti-trinitarian glassses for a moment, and re-read what I posted. Please.
The clarity, of which you speak, is not evident at all. Were it so there would be no dissention.

I dont know who is selling your crack rocks, but you should change dealers.... I have no fear over this rediculous issue, its only a technical puzzle to me, how people like you can be so willing to believe absolute Bull$#!+ so easily without any real evidence or support from the documents you claim....

I futher have NO clue about what point you are so desperate to make because apparently your experiences are causing the shared words to mean something to you that they are not imparting to me.

as to the clarity, I cannot see how it can be much clearer is someone tells you that Jesus is the IMAGE of GOD and you keep ignoring it.

it only becomes muddy when you put on the prejudiced of alreadying believing the trinity and then trying to reconcile all the hundreds of verses which do not show such a thing.

LittleToe

Zen:
Thia is the third time I've compiled a reply. The first was too much "returning in kind", and so I re-assessed (but it was cathartic) the second obviously not meant to be.

I'll simply say this: You are too busy fighting a battle that isn't there. I'm not arguing for the Trinity, but you appear determined to fight on that ground. Now do you really want to discuss the subject, or are you going to continue to resort to ad hominems?

You don't appear to know my position regarding "the divine", the bible", or "hallucinogenic drugs".
I have to question whether or not you can see beyond the title "Christian"...

zen nudist

Now do you really want to discuss the subject, or are you going to continue to resort to ad hominems?

look, I am sick and tired of people like you accusing ME of RESORTING to ad hominems when it was YOU who fired the first shot and your ignorance about insulting others is what I am not going to excuse.

in all this I have said several times if I remember right that I have lost the point you are attempting to make because your words are not conveying it to me...so restate what you are trying to show and what its basis is...or we can drop this now... and if you insult me again, I will not let you get away with it either.

LittleToe

Morning Zen:

look, I am sick and tired of people like you

"People like you" has to be one of the most condescending of all replies, in my book. Genuinely IMHO you've probably never met "people like me"!!! Kindly don't try to lump me in a box with other folks who apparently have offended you in the past. Please?

...it was YOU who fired the first shot and your ignorance about insulting others is what I am not going to excuse.

I have to confess that I AM ignorant of having done such, and on re-reading the thread I can't see what you are refering to. I honestly would be obliged if you would point it out, so that I can refrain from tripping over that one again.
Meanwhile I offer you my profuse apologies, reagardless of whether you accept them or return them in kind.

LittleToe

Cont...

...I have lost the point you are attempting to make because your words are not conveying it to me...so restate what you are trying to show and what its basis is...

Ah, sorry, I should have been quicker to pick up on this, and have elaborated.

Simply put I would offer the position that Jesus is refered to as the "god" of the Christian, in the NT literature. Whether you want to believe that to be polytheistic, or as some kind of imparted godhood, he IS refered to as such. He is also refered to as being the one through whom all things were created.

I'm not here identifying him with the Father, nor am I alluding to some mysterious conjoining (as seen in the Trinity doctrine), but simply taking what the NT has to say about him, in connection with this thread title.

LittleToe

Cont further (coz this doesn't seem to want to post in one piece)...

I would submit that the NT identifies Jesus as the one involved in the conference of Genesis regarding "let us make man in our image", that it was he who was "especially fond of the sons of men", that it was he who showed the compassionate and reasonable face of the OT God and allegedly demonstrated that in human form in the NT, and that the connection between YHWH and Jesus is potentially made in various places.

I am NOT identifying him with Elohim, at this juncture. I am not limiting my points in this thread to mainstream Christian thought. I am not even attempting to intertwine the Trinity doctrine. I am also certainly not trying to offend you, my friend - I enjoy your writing and have too much respect for you, for that.

UnDisfellowshipped

LittleToe said:

My JW-speak radar has just been triggered by your use of the phrase "no doubt", my friend. Your hypothesis is based on several weak assumptions, any one of which can have serious holes picked in it:
Human's can't "pervert" things all on their own

Humans definitely can pervert things on their own.

However, look at what the Apostles said about Satan:

1st John 3:8: He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1st John 3:10: In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Revelation 12:9: And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Ephesians 2:1-2: And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience

2nd Corinthians 4:4: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

So, as you can see, the Scriptures teach that Satan the Devil is the deceiver of all of the unsaved, lost people of the world.

LittleToe said:

The account of Genesis regarding the cradle of humanity, and events recorded, occurred as interpreted
Well, I believe 100% that they did, but you're perfectly free to believe what you want.

If Genesis is not inspired of God, then neither are the rest of the Scriptures.

LittleToe said:

That "emnity between seeds" was specific enough to bring forth a whole theology

Let's look at the Verse:

Genesis 3:15: And I will put enmity between thee [the serpent] and the woman, and between thy [the serpent's] seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

1: The Serpent [Satan] would have a seed.

2: The Woman would have a Seed.

3: There would be enmity between the two seeds.

4: The Seed of the Woman would bruise the Serpent's head.

5: The Serpent would bruise the Woman's Seed's heel.

I can't say for sure, but it appears that God revealed more details to Abel because Abel offered an animal sacrifice (in symbol of the Messiah's future Sacrifice).

LittleToe said:

That other cultures "theologies" were antedated to the Christian one

I haven't done enough research on that subject yet.

LittleToe said:

That "Satan" knew the eternal counsels of "God"

Satan only knows what God allows him to know.

Satan knows all of the Scriptures forward and backwards, probably better than we do, in order to deceive everyone.

zen nudist

I have to confess that I AM ignorant of having done such, and on re-reading the thread I can't see what you are refering to. I honestly would be obliged if you would point it out, so that I can refrain from tripping over that one again.
Meanwhile I offer you my profuse apologies, reagardless of whether you accept them or return them in kind.

here is your offending first shot:

Are you so blinded by the fear that this thread may cause you to accede to a single point

now, you are telling you you find nothing insulting about this? presuming that my responses to you can come from no other source then my blindness and fear? when it seems to me I answered your question to the best of my understanding it and your rejection of my answers because it did not accomidate your point of view lead you to attack my view as blindness and fear?

Was Jesus the first creation of God ?

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