What drives exJWs to atheism?

by ros 108 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  proplog2

  Hi Ros:

  We've talked before. (So this is a return visit):

  You Said:

  "I will just point out that logic does not necessarily equal fact."

  The word "necessarily" is not necessary. I would never make the claim that logic = fact. That is why I was very careful to mention that one's premise ought to be factual. Arguments are usually stated in a SINCE...THEREFORE format. The SINCE part is your premise. If your premise is wrong your conclusion is doomed.

  Most of "logic" has to do with showing how a conclusion does not necessarily follow from some fact. But sometimes the problem is in the so-called "facts".

  Atheists often repeat the statement "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". When you really understand that statement you will understand the Atheist conclusion. Humans aren't very good at logic. The brain evolved under circumstances that require quick judgement based on very little evidence. Some call this intuition. Intuition is "natural thinking". Intuition works fine in most circumstances because the payoff is immediate and requires little time wasted in figuring things out. Belief in GOD is intuitive. "All things are made by someone - there is therefore someone who made ALL things." After making that affirmation the ordinary hunter/gatherer can go back to hunting and gathering. Religion doesn't stop there. It starts saying you owe some percentage of your time, energy, money, ritual to please the MAKER. At that point intuition is no longer cost effective because you are not going to get a return on your investment. When you see that RELIGION doesn't work you start probing the premise.

  Logic is for those times when intuition doesn't work.
• 

  Mulan

  <<<Pathofhorns said: Further, as a JW, most have been convinced that ALL religions besides JWs are WRONG and CORRUPT. Once you realize that the JW religion is also this way, one feels there is NOTHING in the way of ORGANIZED religion that is GOOD. Eventually most private study becomes organized, which is a distasteful thing to most JW's.>>>

  This is basically what happened to me, with one added factor: I was so attached to the RELIGION, that it was one and the same as GOD. When the religion died, so did my God. But, like Jan said, I am finding my way back. NEVER to a religion though. It is all just a turn off. I feel that they are basically all the same, with the JW's a little more disgusting........possibly because I know so much more about them that I do about others.

  For awhile I was attending an informal Bible discussion with others like myself, at the home of another like us. I enjoyed it about 1/3 of the time, depending on who was there, for the most part. Eventually I quit going because it was getting 'too organized' for my taste. It was turning into a 'religion', sort of, although the others sure don't agree with me.

  Amazing, you made some 'amazing' points.
• 

  ozziepost

  G'day Path,

  I posted this same thought earlier this year

  I do think this turning people away from belief in God is their greatest crime, since they accomplish the exact opposite of what they set out and claim to do.

  I must tell you that from the reaction, it was not appreciated at the time. However, nothing I have seen and heard or read has caused me to modify my opinion. It was good to see that at least one other person agrees with me.

  Cheers,
  Ozzie

  "Truth persuades by teaching, but does not teach by persuading."
  TERTULLIAN, Adversus Valentinianos
• 

  Mommie Dark

  Reply:(The condensed version)

  COMMON SENSE!
• 

  Rex B13

  Ros' brand of Christianity:

  Be ready to compromise any principal regardless of whether or not it is Biblical.
  Blame 'fundys' and 'evangelicals' for atheism because unlike Ros, they do not 'water down' biblical principals.
  Cut out parts of the Bible that are unpopular or seem out of date. After all, even if Jesus did teach it as literal, modern science can prove him wrong (little 'g', not really God).
  Ignore the fact that a large percentage of ex-JWs find their way to salvation and REAL Christianity through the efforts of Christians who care.
  If Jim Penton doesn't believe it, don't you either. LOL

  Oh, and ignore the fact that the whole theme of the New Testament is the fact that Christ's blood and His death on the cross is a propitiatary sacrifice for the sins of mankind. Jesus God died not only for us but AS us. You also forgot the command from Him that tells us, 'Go and make disciples.'
  You're not being true to yourself, the Bible or the lost souls here.
  Rex
• 

  proplog2

  I don't think that an atheist is going to be affected one way or another by "born-agains". Even though I'm an atheist I enjoy watching them perform on TV. "I jest luv them suthun axcents". Open your BOBBLES please to...
• 

  Farkel

  proplog2,

  : What drives some x-jw's to atheism? Logic!!

  Yep.

  rem,

  : How about "What drives some JW's to become Apostates?" - the answer is logic.

  Yep.

  Ros,

  : Logic, in of itself, can be flawed.

  Give us an example of that, please.

  For a logical person to believe in God is to throw away logic and embrace faith. It's that simple, and there is nothing more to add to that.

  That's what I had to do, and in doing so, I don't have to explain or more importantly justify my personal beliefs to anyone. They are unexplainable, and I'm wise enough to understand that. If I were to offer any justification at all it would be, "Hey! It can't hurt!" That's it.

  Farkel
• 

  Farkel

  Dub-Dub,

  :Ros' brand of Christianity:

  : Be ready to compromise any principal regardless of whether or not it is Biblical.

  : Blame 'fundys' and 'evangelicals' for atheism because unlike Ros, they do not 'water down' biblical principals.

  Right. They don't like watered-down soupy shit: they like hard and firm shit. The only difference between soup and firm is that with firm there's a lot more pure shit.

  Farkel, who hopes dub-dub doesn't regret his fundy conversion twenty or more years from now
• 

  rosBeacon

  Farkel:
  Even atheists here agreed that logic can be flawed. If the premises are wrong, the logic will be flawed. Examples: Archie Bunker and Timothy McVeigh.
• 

  JanH

  Ros,

  Even atheists here agreed that logic can be flawed.

  
  The statement is ambiguous, so it can be both true and false.

  Let me clarify: If you start with facts, make logically valid deductions from these facts, then the conclusion you make will necessarily be correct.

  For example (pretty roughly):

  1. God exists.
  2. All that God creates are good.
  3. God has created everything.
  4. There exists something that is not good.

  There is a contradiction here between 2-4 and 1. We have demonstrated that given these premises, no God (1) exists.

  Given that the premises are correct, the argument is valid, then the conclusion "God does not exist" is necessarily true.

  You can attack the premises, or the attempt at making a valid deduction (and you must then demonstrate how it is wrong) from them, but you cannot say that "logic can be flawed." If the argument is a sound one, then God does not exist. Simple as that.

  - Jan
  --
  Faith, n. Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel. [Ambrose Bierce, The Devil´s Dictionary, 1911]