Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped 774 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • funkyderek
    funkyderek
    Methinks it was a foregone conclusion, like one out of every 10,000 condoms letting a sperm through...

    That's a design fault. Inevitable perhaps, given that human engineering always requires a compromise (for example, between safety and sensitivity). If Durex were capable of doing so, they would design a 100% safe condom.

    That doesn't mean that Durex intend it to happen, but maybe a design choice might be to let the first one fail to reduce the "Russian Roulette" effect.

    If they could choose which one failed, they could simply remove the failure. Not to do so would be criminally irresponsible. In the case of creating humans, given that the flaw is apparently hereditary, then letting the first one fail dooms all the rest to failure too. There's no "Russian Roulette" effect because everybody dies!

    At least you know where you stand - up the creek without a paddle!

    Which must be either a result of a deliberate choice God made, or a major cock-up on his part.

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    What is death?

    Design fault, or a flaw in the materials used or maybe the circumstances used in?
    There are more than just two polar opposite possibilities.
    At the end of the day, aren't we all trying to make some sense out of life?

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    LT

    That doesn't mean that he was then created imperfectly, for I'm sure you'll agree that everything that God does is good, perfect and righteous?

    Don't be so sure. I believe that every thing that God does is for God and good for the vessels of honor. How about if you are a vessel of dishonor, and you receive justice, Would that be good (by your definition) for you?

    Mat 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

    What is death?

    Biblically it is separation, is it not?

    Which must be either a result of a deliberate choice God made, or a major cock-up on his part.

    I think funky's got you here LT.

    D Dog

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    DD:
    Let me rephrase it for you, to make my point:
    Does God do anything bad, imperfect or unrighteous?

    As for Derek's comments, I've already highlighted that there are more options than just those two polar opposites. Is that really your conclusion, that if God didn't actively direct the fall of man, then it must all have been one huge cockup? I'm sorry, I don't buy that. You may, and that really is your perogative, but I do not.

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    LT

    Does God do anything bad, imperfect or unrighteous?

    1) Bad, I would say no, But Judas may think otherwise. 2) Imperfect, It does seem like it sometimes but, I trust in His view of the big picture and His judgement. 3) Unrighteous, sinse He defines it. Who can judge Him?

    As for Derek's comments, I've already highlighted that there are more options than just those two polar opposites. Is that really your conclusion, that if God didn't actively direct the fall of man, then it must all have been one huge cockup? I'm sorry, I don't buy that. You may, and that really is your perogative, but I do not.

    My point is, that it really is God's perogative D Dog

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    DD:

    1) Bad, I would say no, But Judas may think otherwise.

    I would say no, too, but surely Judas' experiential thoughts are irrelevant.

    2) Imperfect, It does seem like it sometimes but, I trust in His view of the big picture and His judgement .

    Surely our experiential thoughts are irrelevant, since we don't see the big picture.

    3) Unrighteous, sinse He defines it. Who can judge Him?

    Since we can't see the big picture and our concept of God is that He's larger than the sum of all the parts, I agree that any such judgement would be like children throwing their toys out of the playpen.

    My point is, that it really is God's perogative

    And I couldn't agree more, and that overarches all that I'm been saying on the whole thread. However isn't the discussion really about the theology of what is revealed in scripture. I made the comment above (twice) that surely our experience is irrelevant. But ya know, I would actually question that, since I don't believe God limits Himself to dusty old books. Our experience is allegedly what He gives us (Rom.8:28; Eph.1:11; etc.) and so it is important. We learn so much through our faculties. Maybe our experience is subordinate to that which is revealed in scripture when there is a conflict but, with the process of interpretation being so wideranging, there are times when our experience explains scripture to us. For example: Matt.19:29 is far more poignant to someone who has left the JW's on consciencious grounds of faith, than someone who has never experienced that depth of foresakeness. Nonetheless, it is your perogative to believe what you will about scripture. I suspect that if it's wildly wrong then something will come into your experience, or raise itself in your undersanding, to correct it (perhaps like a little toe up the rear end ). I would ask a further question on exactly that point, though:
    Whilst saving grace is irresistable, and progressive sanctification will have it's fulfillment in every believer, is it possible to resist the knowledge that God is able to give us?

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    LT

    1) Bad, I would say no, But Judas may think otherwise.
    I would say no, too, but surely Judas' experiential thoughts are irrelevant.

    Jesus must have thought it relevant enough to include in scripture. This is not Judas' opinion, It is a truth that God choose to reveal, that it was not "good" for Judas to have been born.

    Nonetheless, it is your perogative to believe what you will about scripture. I suspect that if it's wildly wrong then something will come into your experience, or raise itself in your undersanding, to correct it (perhaps like a little toe up the rear end ).

    Or in your case a D Dog tugging at your shoe laces

    I would ask a further question on exactly that point, though:
    Whilst saving grace is irresistable, and progressive sanctification will have it's fulfillment in every believer, is it possible to resist the knowledge that God is able to give us?

    This is a great question, and I don't think I can do it justice, but, here goes. I would say that it's impossible to resist "the truths of God", and without the working of the Holy Spirit, it's impossible to accept or believe. Meaning Romans Chapter 1 seems to teach that there are things, that we can't not know (general revelation), but, we refuse to accept or believe (in our fallen state). I also believe that there are things that God reveals only to His children Phi 3:15 "Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you." If you are asking why does he not reveal everything all at once to believers, I don't know. If I had to guess, sin may play a part, also we all come to the scripture with unique bits of baggage from or pasts that we need to unlearn. D Dog

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    DD:

    Jesus must have thought it relevant enough to include in scripture. This is not Judas' opinion, It is a truth that God choose to reveal, that it was not "good" for Judas to have been born.

    I may have misunderstood the point you were making. My answer was in respects to Judas' own thoughts, not the fact that his final lot was pretty crumby.

    Or in your case a D Dog tugging at your shoe laces

    Definitely!
    And I've been enjoying it thoroughly

    I would say that it's impossible to resist "the truths of God", and without the working of the Holy Spirit, it's impossible to accept or believe.

    Unless God reveals it, it remains nonsense. It would be impossible to believe.
    Phil.3 was a good quote and yet, experientially, it seems that we can resist for a while.
    I think you highlighted the main causes of it.
    (note that I'm not talking about "saving" knowledge here, but rather later doctrine)

    But then I do have to throw the following spanner in the works by asking what is "essential" doctrine?
    Since some folks from polar opposites of certain doctrinal debates (e.g. Arminians and Calvinists) are likely saved, then what does that tell us?

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    LT I don't think that it is us that resists as much as it is God taking his time changing us, as He accomplishes His purposes through us. I think that it is human nature to trade (or exchange) the truth for something (a lie) we like better, or that we want to be true, like being our own god.

    But then I do have to throw the following spanner in the works by asking what is "essential" doctrine?

    Here are four, but, this can get complicated when you start talking about things like the Trinity. 1) the Deity of Christ 2) Salvation by Grace 3) Resurrection of Christ 4) the gospel. I have to say that the five "solas" of the Reformation--sola fide (faith alone), sola gratia (grace alone), solus Christus (Christ alone), sola Scriptura (Scripture alone) and soli Deo gloria (to God alone be glory) are a good place to start as well. D Dog

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    My own list would be similar to yours:

    • The deity and subsequent human incarnation of the Son of God
    • The death and resurrection of the same, upon which basis we have our own lively hope
    • Salvation by accepting a free gift, not earned by works
    • The law of "love" (of God, self and neighbour, even enemies) as a spontaneous result of that union

    I have a great appreciation for Augustine's comment:
    "In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, diversity; in all things, grace!"

    Though not "essential", I find great comfort in the idea of eternal security (Perseverance of the Saints). The idea, that once we're adopted into the family of God we shall never be forsaken, seems to me to be the capstone of grace.

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