Comments You Will Not Hear At the 5-8-04 WT Study

by blondie 20 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  VM44

  Hi blondie,

  Do you know what book this is? The source is not named.

  I found the following at http://mirrorh.com/quotes3.html

  "There is nothing 'holy' about the Bible, nor is it 'the word of God.' It was not written by God-inspired saints, but by power-seeking priests. Who but priests consider sin the paramount issue? Who but priests write volumes of religious rites and rituals? No one, but for these priestly scribes sin and rituals were imperatives: their purpose was to found on them an awesome religion. By this intellectual tyranny they sought to gain control, and they achieved it. By 400 B.C. they were the masters of ancient Israel. For so great a project they needed a theme, a framework, and this they found in the Creation lore of more knowledgeable races. This they commandeered and perverted - the natural to the supernatural, and truth to error. The Bible is, we assert, but priest-perverted cosmology." [Lloyd M. Graham, Deceptions and Myths Of The Bible, p. 1]

  There are more quotes from Graham's book at that website.

  --VM44
• 

  VM44

  You can get Deceptions and Myths of the Bible at Amazon, not that expensive, only $13.97

  http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0806511249/102-3347238-7124921

  The customer reviews are interesting to read.

  --VM44
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  cyber-sista

  Thank you Blondie,

  These WT reviews are very helpful to me.. As I am still on "the fade" and dealing with JW relatives and others in my life it is good to know where their minds are being set from week to week. It also helps to me to realize if they are gung-ho followers of the Org there is not much I could say to them at this point in time that would not be a waste of my time and energy. They are being strongly programmed now to resist all thinking outside of the Org I will just have to let them be until they see or decide for themselves that the Org is not all it says it is--sad but true.

  It all strikes me now as being so very selfish. When I was on my way out it was constantly thrown in my face that I would lose my everlasting life if I did not take such and such course (something very unloving and harmful to my family). So the message was don't care about anyone but yourself and think only of your own everlasting life. Don't listen to your heart--don't love or practice compassion. And whatever you do don't think too much about Jesus and the way he conducted himself or you may fall into the trap of practicing unconditional love and compassion towards all of humankind.

  Love always,

  cybs
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  Faraon

  Hi blondie,

  I looked through the whole 2003 WT-CD and could find nothing that gave supporting scriptural proof that Eve did not know it was a real snake. Any other comments by Bible scholars on this.

  I am far from a bible scholar, but on the story of the creation and the snake, some things stick in my mind: According to Flavius Josephus, who was a Jewish historian at almost the same time when Jesus was supposed to be born, wrote in Antiquities of the Jews, Book I, Chapter 1, that all animals talked, not only the snake,

  http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/ant-1.htm

  4. God therefore commanded that Adam and his wife should eat of all the rest of the plants, but to abstain from the tree of knowledge; and foretold to them, that if they touched it, it would prove their destruction. But while all the living creatures had one language

  The snake was envious,

  at that time the serpent, which then lived together with Adam and his wife, shewed an envious disposition, at his supposal of their living happily,

  It insinuated that there was more than one god,

  when they should obtain, they would lead a happy life; nay, a life not inferior to that of a god

  The tree actually increased their knowledge and thought they were happier than before. They had been lied to.

  for the tree sharpened their understanding; and they covered themselves with fig-leaves; and tying these before them, out of modesty, they thought they were happier than they were before, as they had discovered what they were in want of.

  God was surprised at Adam´s behavior.

  This behavior surprised God; and he asked what was the cause of this his procedure; and why he, that before delighted in that conversation, did now fly from it, and avoid it. When he made no reply, as conscious to himself that he had transgressed the command of God, God said,

  God took away the power of speech from the snake, which it had before, it was not di debil speaking for it.

  He also deprived the serpent of speech,

  God put poison in the snake´s mouth

  Besides this, he inserted poison under his tongue, and made him an enemy to men

  Then jehovah reiterates that the snake had feet before by saying that he deprived the snake of the use of its feet.

  And when he had deprived him of the use of his feet, he made him to go rolling all along, and dragging himself upon the ground

  Faraón
• 

  Flowerpetal

  Thanks, Blondie! This paragraph is what I have been wrestling with for almost the past year:

  Paragraph 8

  To fellow Christians (only the anointed), the apostle Paul wrote: "It is necessary for us to pay more than the usual attention to things heard by us, that we may never drift away." (Hebrews 2:1) A ship adrift does not reach its destination. If a captain is inattentive to wind and current, his ship might easily drift past a safe harbor and run aground on a rocky shore. Similarly, if we are inattentive to the precious truths (buzz phrase) of God?s Word, we might easily drift away from Jehovah (the WTS) and suffer spiritual shipwreck.

  If all this counsel in the Greek scriptures is for only the anointed, then the society shouldn't be trying to make us "unanointed christians" (and I say that with a question mark because it makes me wonder what I really am) try to live lives as if we were anointed. It shouldn't apply to us, and we shouldn't be made to feel guilty when we fall short of trying to achieve these goals. But, alas, they do.
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  Klaus Vollmer

  hello Blondie,

  I've researched this expression from the WT you have here in work:

  "There is nothing ?holy? about the Bible, nor is it ?the word of God"

  and I have found the following webpage:

  http://www.frostcloud.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1453

  have a look at the GAIDEN post, it seems that we have there the exakt phrases about the matter

  greetings to all

  KV
• 

  itsallgoodnow

  Hi Blondie,

  You made some interesting observations on this study. Thanks for all the work you put into it.

  2 things I noticed were:

  a. Paragraph 4 - Like you, I noticed they didn't list the source of the seemingly evil, Satanic book (poisoning the well) that was quoted; concerning the "worldy" viewpoints on the validity and holiness of the bible.

  b. The box on pg 11 which compared "worldly wisdom" against biblical wisdom. The worldly "wisdom" they carefully selected for this were: 1) truth is relative - people make their own truth 2) to determine right & wrong, trust your feelings 3) do your own thing, and 4) wealth is the key to happiness.

  I started to feel a little tension when I came across these two points. It was as if they were speaking about me, knowing that I'm questioning everything, including the bible's validity, and that I'm interested in learning more about philosophy. But, I quickly rationalized that this was the desired affect. They visit web sites and message boards like this one and know the ideas the R&F is being exposed to. Then, they create anxiety by seemingly, even mystically, knowing what you are thinking. For those not yet exposed to any of these ideas, they create resistance and immunity to them.

  The fact they didn't reference the work they quoted in paragraph 4 belies their fear of its power should someone actually decide to read it.

  The worldly ideas they selected for the table were some of the weakest philosophies, if you would even call them that, so that any common person could see something wrong with them. They effectively used the straw man tactic here, which is distorting or misrepresenting someone's position so that it may be easy to refute. Attack the misrepresented position or the weak straw man (unreal person) and then conclude that the original position is incorrect or ridiculous. The inherent weaknesses in the worldly ideas carefully selected for the table do not expose the R&F's faith to any danger. The WTS is careful in general not to expose the R&F to stronger worldly arguments, I notice.

  These things are important to me because they are an indicator of the growing desperation and powerlessness of the WTS, in the face of mounting information against them that at least some of the R&F is obviously encountering. The WTS works to build up tension and anxiety in them by inducing guilt and fear in order to continue controlling them. However, this immunity affect is wearing off as the R&F become more indifferent, and as can be seen here in this study and many others, when they are asked to renew their sensitivities to worldly thinking.

  It could be wishful thinking on my part, but I felt exhilarated and excited to see this in the WT.
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  Nosferatu

  For example, the preface of a book that attacks the Bible states: "There is nothing ‘holy’ about the Bible, nor is it ‘the word of God.’ It was not written by God-inspired saints, but by power-seeking priests." Those who are led to believe such claims may easily fall prey to the misguided notion that they are free to worship God in any way that they please—or not to worship him at al

  You know, sometimes you gotta wonder if the WTS is making stuff up, or if they actually did quote someone's work without giving credit. I'm sure the author would like to know that his work is not getting any credit.

  One author observes, "The view of Judaism and Christianity that pervades popular culture is negative. At best they are seen as quaint; at worst, as archaic perspectives that hinder intellectual maturity and obstruct scientific progress. In recent years disdain has grown to ridicule and open hostility."

  Someone in the writing department probably said this.

  Do all these unnamed references tie in with the WTS's idea that "no author is credited so all praise can go to Jehovah God"? I wonder what the first author would think of Jehovah being credited for his work?
• 

  blondie

  Jgnat,

  Is there any way to contact her and find out?

  Because of her faith, she may be a staunch defender of twenty years of ignorance in the Christian church, and got snaffled in to this interview because of her expertise in this area.

  VM44,

  Thanks for finding the source of that quote!

  Cyber-sista,

  It also helps to me to realize if they are gung-ho followers of the Org there is not much I could say to them at this point in time that would not be a waste of my time and energy. They are being strongly programmed now to resist all thinking outside of the Org I will just have to let them be until they see or decide for themselves that the Org is not all it says it is--sad but true.

  So true; I?ve been reading Steven Hassan?s "Combatting Cult Mind Control" and he says the same thing. But he says to prepare and notice when the situation changes.

  Faraon,

  Interesting, but then the other animals would have retained their power of speech. But perhaps only Dr. Doolittle can understand them.

  Flowerpetal

  , long time no hear,

  Yes, I always resisted the WTS attempt to make me feel inferior. Now I don?t worry what "class" I?m in as long as it is the one that shows love to fellow humans and myself as well. Who needs a religious label to do that?

  Thanks, Klaus. VM44 about found the source of that quote (see above). How goes it in Deutschland?

  Itsallgoodnow,

  Isn?t it amazing how the WTS so often fails to list the source when it quotes from non-JW material? Yes, I wondered too how we can be free moral agents yet not be able to determine right from wrong.

  Nosferatu, I?m sure that when they leave out who wrote it, that it is not a WTS source. I?m not sure what the motivation is except to discourage JWs from getting the book and reading it. I was told that the WTS researchers have an extra portion of holy spirit that protects them from being infected by worldly thinking as they read non-JW material.

  I have seem them quote from secular material but not reveal that the author is a JW as well.

  Blondie
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  run dont walk

  great as always blondie