An honest estimate of ourselves.... (long)

by Theocrat 51 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Fleur

  theo, i didn't read quite all of the responses here so if i'm repeating anyone , my apologies.
  

  you said:
  

  : No matter what each of our backgrounds may be, we still MUST realize that God?s kingdom as the only hope for mankind.

  this remark just made my mouth fall open. we 'must' believe nothing of the sort. must, along with never and always are absolutes that i try not to use in my vocabulary. give me concrete, provable reasons without using the WT or any other JW rhetoric why exactly we MUST believe anything. I bet you can't.

  other than the fact we must believe in gravity cause if we jump out of a plane without a chute we'll die, i don't think there are many things we must believe in. even then, i suppose we could deny it, but the proof will be in the result. where are the results that the society promised my great grandparents? grandparents? parents? my family is going on the fifth generation who believed the lies, and the first three are now old, bitter, and sad, or dead.

  i want better than that for my child. i don't want her to waste her life waiting for the fairytale to come and save her. at least at the end of her life she would be able to say she had actually lived.

  i guess i don't fit the profile of your vision of the 'freedom' that people live after leaving the org.

  i don't smoke, never have. by choice. i don't drink, because my family has a bad history with alcohol and i choose not to deal with the substance at all. again, my choice.

  i don't sleep around, nor would i have if i'd been 'free' as a teenager. it's not my way.

  i celebrate christmas because i want to have the memories of it with my child. my family doesn't celebrate it, in fact they hate that i do. my hubby's family is all out of state so there is no pressure to 'conform'. a lot of my friends don't celebrate it because they have their own faiths/customs, that is fine by me.

  i am an agnostic, married to one man, a law abiding citizen. in fact, if you met me on the street you could even mistake me at times for a jw, a jw i hadn't seen in years that i ran into recently had no idea i was 'out'.

  so where do i fit in your grand scheme of things? i'm happy without the burdens that the organization put on me, i won't let them put those same burdens on my child. i don't believe that a loving god if there were one would murder the vast majority of the population, when many people are sincerely trying to serve him in their own way.

  if i don't live up to your standards, well, i can live with that. i AM better off out, because if i'd stayed in, i would have killed myself long ago.

  course, i suppose you'd say at least then i'd be in line for a resurrection.

  if your motives were sincere in posting this here, then you're sincerely misguided. if you were trying to provoke people, then i think you should investigate other hobbies.

  fleur
• 

  CeriseRose

  Why? Why must we make an honest estimate of ourselves? Who demands that of us? God? Does he need us to estimate ourselves so he can understand us? No.

  You assume that people here still feel an obligation to the god of the WTS. I have news for you...he doesn't exist. He is fabricated out the mind of Fred Franz, and has little to do with the Bible. You won't believe that, because you're not allowed.

  Speaking of not allowed, you aren't supposed to be here. If you want to be honest with yourself, you KNOW nothing you can say would justify your being here when you've been told you shouldn't. How about a challenge? You go to your elders, and you tell them what you've been doing. In addition, make sure that there is a letter that goes to the WTS governing body. Let everyone know who you've been talking to, in direct violation of the rules. Oh, indicate that you intend to continue to do it. See what happens.

  I like your attempt to make it "us," as if you class yourself along with the others on this board. You have apparently made your assessment of yourself and are satisfied. Do the people here need *you* to be the voice of conscience? Not really. We've ALL heard the rhetoric your selling. We've ALL been a part of your "loving" organization and their concept of "god". It's not news, the only difference is we don't *have* to do anything about it.

  What I'd like to know is if your Jehovah gets more upset at a person who's been hurt and ends up leaving the source of the hurt or by the consistent and flagrant lies, half-truths, unaccountability, lack of empathy, lack of true Christian attitude engendered by the WTS and its clones? Who has the bloodguilt for the years of 'new light' over interfering in health and medical choices? Who has the bloodguilt for the THOUSANDS of child abuse cases? Even if you can't believe everything you read on the internet, if even a tenth of those cases are true, this organization has been instrumental in destroying the lives of many. Who has the bloodguilt for ripping apart families by insinuating themselves in the marriage bed and dividing parents and children with unscriptural shunning? Even if that's not "God", do you honestly think that God is backing that kind of action? Wake up.

  You don't know any of the people on the board. You don't 'get' what the WTS has done to destroy people's lives. So you go ahead and sit in judgement (which is what you're doing), just as the WTS has trained you. Maybe one day you and the clones like you will understand and find the path to true freedom. It's my fervent hope you do.

  BTW, let us know how it goes with the elders. And if you decide not to do so, which is your free choice, then come back and explain to us why. Because honestly, you expect us to buy your sincerity and yet you are being deceitful to the organization of which you are a part.
• 

  jgnat

  Out of the last dozen replies Theocrat, you have only responded to Undaunted Danny? Yes, he is our resident obsessive rally-boy. I think his tenacious spirit is kind of cute. I am glad we have a board generous enough to tolerate him. And you. Surely you have noticed that JWD is a mix of many temperaments and beliefs. Some XJW?s remain Christian. Others reject the bible outright. I hope to see some thoughtful replies from you, Theocrat, to some of these other posters. First of all, I take slight exception to your header, because it really does lump us all together. ?An honest estimate of ourselves? Are you including yourself in that number? Are you lumping as diverse a group as Undaunted Danny, Country Girl, Alan F, Logansrun in the same pot? That is not really fair, so for the rest of my comments, I will reply to your statements as they apply to me. I can speak authoritatively about my own feelings and motivations. I cannot speak for others.
  
  1. We feel the need to ?validate our reason for being here?I guess this applies. I spend time on activities that I consider worthwhile. First off, JWD met my need to express myself. As a female non-JW, I could not talk freely anywhere else, and expect to be understood. After my initial need was met, I asked myself if I could contribute to the board by helping others. I think I do, so I stay. 2. To expound on our theories
  Once in a while I speculate, but that is not where I spend the majority of my time. 3. How we are so much better off since we started ?doing our own thing.?
  This does not apply, since I was never a JW. I am a free Christian, well on 20 years. So, though you may consider me ?worldly?, I do not see myself that way. 4. I?ve seen all kinds of confounding posts here that no lover of God would ever publish. Not me, I hope. There you go lumping again. 5. So many here talk about how they are so much better off now that they have left the organization.
  Doesn?t apply. I talk about how much better it is outside the organization. Windows. Fresh air. 6. You just couldn?t stand the conformity aspect one more minute.
  Oooh, yes, I can relate to this. Tell me, could I comment openly about the WT publications in a Kingdom Hall, like I can here? 7. But what about now, since you?ve left?
  Never joined, so this doesn?t apply. 8. Some are celebrating holidays that they know to be from Babylonian/Pagan origins.
  In my opinion, EVERYTHING ON EARTH has pagan origins, if you look back far enough. For Jehovahs? sake, if you are gonna be a pagan origin freak, throw away your wedding ring! I say, avoid activities that are pagan today. 9. Why? Because your families that are so happy that you are now free are urging you to go with the flow of the world?s scheduled holidays? Who?s a conformist now?I love holidays because they are a wonderful opportunity for families to bond. Where is the pressure to conform? 10. Its just that an honest estimate of ourselves is long overdue.
  Let me rephrase that, because I am not sure if you are including yourself in that number. ?It?s just that an honest estimate of yourself and why you are here on JWD is overdue.?See point one. I make this evaluation every time I sign on to JWD. I will stop visiting when it no longer serves any useful purpose. That has not happened yet. 11. Remember how good you felt when you knew you were giving praise and glory to Almighty God, not an earthly organization.
  Have been, still do, for over twenty years now. 12. The Bible inspires in its readers, not doubt, but confidence.
  Evaluative statement. That may be true for you or me, but not everybody. 13. No matter what each of our backgrounds may be, we still MUST realize that God?s kingdom as the only hope for mankind
  Personally, I find the complete lack of confidence in mankind to be irritating and presumptuous of the WTBTS. God created us. We are not shoddy workmanship. The odd autocratic man has been known to take great ideals and twist them for his own ends. Historic Christianity (including the WTBTS), and the idealist concepts in Marxism are proof of that. In many ways, our civilization has overcome great ills and evils, more than any generation before. I think this speaks to the creative God-breathed spirit that resides in every man. 14. Where is the evidence of holy spirit in your lives now?
  Loving family, respectful staff, warm neighbours. 15. still your own personal experiences with the organization can?t be ignored. I understand that. No doubt Jehovah understands that. Be sure He will deal with unjust people in His own time. Jesus threw out the moneychangers. He challenged the existing hierarchy. I see nothing ?unchristian? in exposing injustice. How is Jehovah?s will accomplished? Through His people! I say, ?waiting on Jehovah? is evil, removing personal responsibility from individual Christians.
• 

  copsec

  Danc, if I wanted a sermon I would go back to the KH. i DON'T want a sermon!
• 

  willyloman

  I have never been so proud of all my fellow "ex's" as when I read these past couple of pages. I believe y'all have given theo a "thorough witness." Not that he will agree to a study.
  

  Isn't it amazing that when some zealot like this comes on the board and preaches his WT message, it makes everything crystal clear?

  I am not grandstanding, but I want theocrat to know that just a few months ago I was a JW elder with credentials I suppose he would kill for. Decades in the truth, family all zealous, bunch of family pioneers, enjoyed "prominent" standing and seats in the most holy at the conventions, and all of it. I did not leave to "do my own thing," nor because I wanted to partake of some imaginary drunken orgy on the "outside." I left because of what I saw, over a period of many years, after they let me inside the inner sanctum. If theo knew what I knew, he would be appalled and his faith shaken to the core.

  If love is "the identifying mark of the true religion,"as I preached from the platform on many a Sunday, then this organization, this religion, fails the test. The love is highly conditional and extremely provisional. It disappears in a heartbeat the moment you question what the hell is going on.

  Theo, I am proud to tell you that I am systematically removing my entire family from the clutches of the WT. The process is nearly completed and going very well. We are all much happier enjoying the freedom God intended for his children and devoting our energy to connecting spirituality with the family of man. You could not drag me away from this exciting journey we are on. Each day is a miracle.
• 

  shotgun

  Theocrat

  DO you like knock knock jokes?
• 

  kls

  Theo, really if this is how you feel about us why are you here? This site is all people feeling and doing what they want. If you feel the need to preach go were you will be heard ,i assure you it isn't here.
• 

  boa

  theocrat....up to yer ol jw tricks again eh? I was gonna post to this crap (immho) the other night but thought a lil' cool down time would be better first.....

  I?m not writing you to put you down or to make waves.

  I don't believe this for a second.

  Maybe some of you think I?ve made a good point or two, but still your own personal experiences with the organization can?t be ignored. I understand that. No doubt Jehovah understands that.

  This is laughable - I suspect only YOU think you've made a 'good point or two' and I agree MY own personal experiences with the org CAN'T be ignored. They have been a part of the formation of who I am for good and bad. The key is NOT allowing anymore of the 'bad' to affect me from this apostate religion. ps. Thanks for speaking for Jehovah in telling me 'no doubt' (typical wt assumption to speak for Him). The qualifying 'no doubt' is unnoticed imo by most jws in deep mind control.

  Be assured that men like that always burn themselves out, and Jehovah?s allowing them to keep their position for whatever short time that may be, IS ONLY SO THAT OUR FAITH MAY BECOME STRONGER.

  That you would promote this and expect people who've been abused in the worst way to believe it is disgusting. That you truly could suggest God would allow such evil to happen to his 'other sheep' to 'strengthen their faith' is evil and as apostate an idea as any i've heard. Shame on you for thinking it and 'preaching' it for you testify AGAINST a God of Love. To twist 1 Peter 4:12-14 as an effort to make someone feel 'better' about themselves for being a sexually abused child (since its God testing and strengthening their faith), in many cases because the GB's own policy's protect such ones in the congregation is repulsive and shameful 'theocrat'.

  In closing, I want to cite some personal experiences of people who once felt just like many of you here feel now:

  Nice. This thread sounds like another crappy public talk filled with all the games the wts uses to regularly dupe the R & F.

  The following is really funny. Dodging the issues, and only giving ONE side of the story is typical jw apologist clap-trap but I'll give you the decency of taking a peek at it:

  ?An ex-elder in the west of France began to have doubts about being one of Jehovah?s Witnesses because, as he put it, the spiritual food being served seemed to him to be always the same.

  It is, he was right imo, something I thought for years as well.

  So he resigned as an elder.

  A smart decision....too bad he didn't stick with it (if this 'experience is even true).

  However, his family and the other elders did not treat him as if he were an apostate.

  Uh, red herring imo, since he wasn't questioning the Society's correctness or that it wasn't the 'truth'.

  They lovingly helped him through prayer and upbuilding conversations. Gradually, this brother was helped to realize that there cannot be new explanations all the time, any more than a mother can serve entirely different meals three times a day and 365 days a year. The same basic ingredients come back in different forms, but an appreciative palate helps one to enjoy the food, digest it and draw strength from it.

  More like 'deepen the indoctrination' imo. 'Gradually' is how jws bring the unsuspecting 'householders' in the 'territory's into the nest, then when they get baptized some begin to realize for the first time that, as the second baptism question asked says: "Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with God's spirit-directed organization?" that something isn't right in town. This question alone shows their baptism is unbiblical!

  This brother was also helped to reflect on the dearth of spiritual food elsewhere.

  A jw lie imo but if the 'experience' means by this that their is a dearth of organizations out there with crazy unique, distorted, lying Bible intrepretations, then I suppose YES, compared to the total number of Christian beliefs, jw 'spiritual food' is 'bountiful' and there is a 'dearth' of (bullsh) 'it' like it outside of jws.

  He gradually regained confidence, deepened his appreciation for the good things that he had learned, got his spiritual strength back and experienced newfound joy in Jehovah?s service. Now, he is once again serving as a Christian elder.

  JW 'confidence' is not true confidence (one dictionary says confidence is 'boldness' and 'assurance' when they are hidden in their little world unable to stand up to the very valid criticism of their own beliefs (thus, its not 'truth'). Their own organization refuses to discuss or refute such honest criticism as well - thus NOT the 'TRUTH' because the truth about a matter stands on its own merits and will cut through falsehood. JW 'spiritual' strength is deep mind programming imo as well as JW 'joy', and its too bad he was so duped to actually 'serve' as an 'elder' again because imo it means he's really a lost cause for gaining true freedom (christian or otherwise).

  What is the point of all of this? Happiness. Pleasing God. Here are just 2 examples of people who were beset by doubts, but who overcame them and recovered their happiness in God?s service.

  Reading your thread and how like others you post as well, I wonder 'what the point is' since you, like your 'mother' don't or won't answer any real issues. You only give 2 examples and yet you are surrounded by thousands on this site that also 'overcame' their doubts and WISENED up that their doubt were founded and real and proof of the falseness of so-called jw 'truth'.

  If they had yielded to their doubts, today they would be unhappy and without hope. James 1:6 says: ?He who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven by the wind and blown about? and James 1:8 says that man is ?an indecisive man, unsteady in all his ways.?

  Yah, see above.....there are many thousands on this site alone who have never been happier in their lives.....I am one of them. 'Without hope' is more silly jw fear talk to keep jws in line - sort of like their common misquote of the scripture at John 6:68. The common jw says 'WHERE' will you go if you leave the organization? The scripture actually says:

  68 Simon Peter answered him: "Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life;

  Thus, many have continued to 'GO' on past jwism to stay with Christ.

  Freedom and truth are their own reward....I'll worry about finding new 'hope' from this point on thank you very much.

  The bottom line theocrat is that I figure you are one or more of the following:

  1) Cruel and insensitive troll.

  2) JW apologist that truly believes what he preaches on 'apostate' site in which case you clearly show you are in deep mind control since you can't see the forest for the trees when you claim to read all about the information on this site yet still post this thread.

  3) Are stupid (which I don't believe)

  4) Are actually trying to help all of us be more sure of our decisions to leave the WTS by ignoring the issues and spouting what you have. LOL

  5) Actually don't believe much of what you have written and are actually on the way out yourself, but just want to see how others would respond to JW speak. Plus, I've seen your humour on other threads so who knows who you REALLY are?

  6) Like the look of your own writing and the attention your threads get yet you don't have to do any work to respond to the issues....I believe several over your short stay have offered you to 'bring it on' anytime you want to dance.

  Out of all these choices, its too bad I couldn't have added 7) A loving caring Christian with an open mind to other ideas and patient to hear them out and supply loving support and assistance as well as personal testimony to real and accurate 'truth' in the steps of your leader Jesus Christ.

  boa puts his money on either 1or 4.
• 

  Corvin

  Theocrat, you are a walking lie and a talking contradiction. How can you come in here and preach all of that WT garbage, proclaim your righteousness and then attack those who disagree with you? Using those silly pics form ebaumsworld is the most childish, non-effective way to rebut our objections to your sermons. Would Jesus use such lame and insulting tactics?

  Corvin
• 

  new light

  ?I realized that I was allowing bad spiritual food to arouse in me traits of my old personality, one of which was a spirit of rebellion.? Two Watchtower articles set things straight in his mind: ?The Way of Life?Narrow but Free,? in the October 15, 1977, issue, and ?How God?s Kingdom Can Benefit You,? in the January 15, 1978, issue. He regained confidence, entered the full-time preaching work and is now serving as a special pioneer.

  Poor sap. He almost made it out but his own lack of confidence bit him in the end. If you're a JW teen, and they haven't squashed your natural "spirit of rebellion", you still have a chance to live a real life. Get out now!!!!