Intellectual Honesty vs Spiritual Claims

by Amazing1914 25 Replies latest jw friends

frankiespeakin

Un,
(((((((((((Hugs)))))))))))
Sorry for all your family has been thru. Sometimes events that happen to us just plain suck.
I hope better days will come.
Sunspot

This is the first post i've read here toady...and WHAT a post!!! Thanks again, Jim, for your perspective and unique insight!
"Ponder these things" rings in my mind......
Undecided...sorry to hear all the negatives going on in your life, buddy.....
hugs,
Annie
Mulan

Most people don't like being lied to ... and we as ex-JWs don't ever again want to be victims of a lie. By exercising "Intellectual Honesty" we help ourselves avoid getting sucked up into claims of faith and spirituality ... we side-step would-be prophets and self-anointed leaders who wish to enslave us to their will ... we actually avoid displeasing any God, because we are not ready to accept such claims without proof it truly comes from Him / Her / It ...

This is me!! I don't understand why people, who have faith in these things, feel the necessity to have others believe as they do. Why can't we all just believe or not believe as we wish?
Good job, Jim.
outnfree

Hi, Jim!
My favorite scripture since I was in second grade (if not before) is the following:
"Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God,. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love." -- I John 4:7,8
I think this is a universal truth above all other, although when I first studied it, I had a narrower view of God than I do at present. I feel very strongly that learning to express love, perhaps learning to BE love, is humankind's reason for existence. If it informs our present, we need not worry about future rewards.
(((((Ken)))))
outnfree
AGuest

May you have peace!
Imagine my surprise when I opened this thread and saw my name! Yikes, I said; what now? I think there are a lot of similarities in our thinking, and some not so much. But I would like to respond, if I may, and hope that you will take this in the spirit... and "tone" that I intend. Please... do not read between the lines, for there is nothing there. I am what I am; I say what I mean and mean what I say... without nothing hidden. Alrighty then...
I will not parse out the entire post as that would take too much time. Also, this post is not an attack on Shelby, but on the type of thinking that gives people what I term, "God Complexes." What I mean by this complex, is not a "put-down" of spiritual things, but rather a focus on faux spirituality that is a waste of time and an insult to otherwise intelligent minds.
That you are addressing ?intelligent? minds perhaps leaves me out, dear Amazing1914, but since I (or what I posted) am/is the subject of this thread, I'll continue. Please bear with my lack of intelligence... or omission of intelligent honesty, as you perceive that to have occurred.
I confess to you and everyone here: I am a ?foolish? thing, and so much of what I post may sound foolish. That is absolutely true and I do not take issue with your perception of that.
The lead in sentance continues the ever-constant theme that we humans are these physical creatures that have a hard time discerning spiritual things ... because we demand physical evidence that meets our senses head on

Which statement, while perhaps appearing foolish... is also true?

... it is continuing a theme that is subtly insulting, arrogant, and presumptuous.
I TRULY apologize if my post made you feel that way. Indeed, you ?sound? offended, which was not my intention at all, truly. May I quote you something that I have always thought to be VERY intelligent? Please note that this truly is a quote; I myself could not have come up with something so? sublime:

?Do not hurry yourself in your spirit to become offended, for the taking of offense is what rests in the bosom of the stupid ones.?

Now, that might not sound so intelligent ... or honest... to you, but personally, I think it?s pure genius.
By nature we human are TOO spiritual. The human species in nearly every culture and throughout its entire existence has exhibited a strong inclination toward the spiritual, the unseen, the invisible, the unknowable, and the unprovable. It is the virtue of "Intellectual Honesty" that is allowing modern humans, especially in advanced cultures, to break free of the gravity of human spiritualism and special claims of spirituality, and to put an end to such fantasies. Such honesty is exposing religions of every breed for what they are.
Actually, we are not spiritual enough, but I'm not sure you would understand that. It is because we HIDE what we truly are and are NOT honest... that such problems exist. You are correct, however, in saying that we should break free and I applaud ALL ?honesty? that has to ability to loosen the hold of religion on mankind. However, what I share is not born of religion, does not direct one to religion, and has no sharing with religion. It is not, however, unknowable and unprovable? and actually REQUIRES honesty? in its purest form? but honesty? from the SPIRIT? the man you are INSIDE.

I?ll give you an example: what if were to hide what I hear and see? keep it to myself? did not confess or share it. Would that be HONEST? What if I, in wanting to be perceived as ?intelligent? rather than foolish, spoke of things of which I do not know (such as rocket science) and then pretended to know nothing of what I do? Would that be HONEST? It amazes me that folks say they don?t want to be lied to? and yet, it seems to ME that that is EXACTLY what they want? if the truth is beyond their comprehension.
Our problem has NOT been our base, animalistic, instinctual inclination to view matters from a purely physical perspective, but rather, to attribute nearly everything in our lives as having some spiritual connection ... some meaning attached to some hidden lesson from God.
And this faux sense of spirituality has led people of every religion into serious trouble ... it is the root of many, if not most of our human ills.
It is not the ?faux sense? of spirituality that has served religion, dear Amazing. It is the ?faux?.... ummmm... truth... about spirituality itself. Religion has taught that the spirit is an unknown thing, intangible and uncertain. Why? Because they cannot explain what they do not know. So, they make up things. And since in truth we ARE spiritual beings? actually MORE spirit than flesh... (if you lost a part of your physical body, would you yourself be diminished?), we tend to believe the lies, as they appeal to our LACK of honesty. That is why I share what I do? without a pulpit, without a church, without a magazine, without a request for donations or contributions? and I tell you EXACTLY from whom I received it. I do not take credit for it? for it is not mine.

The PROBLEM? is that earthling man has been SO misled by religion? SO lied to? SO deceived? that like many, you?re at a point where ANYTHING that speaks of ANYTHING having to do with ANYTHING "spiritual"? is suspect. And that is as it should be. It is for that very reason that I tell you: do NOT listen to me? but to the One who speaks to YOU, too? from the heavens.

This attempt to categorize people into some "box" that unless they have been blessed by the particular brand of spirituality promoted by its sales force, speaks to a sickness in our humanity, that is: The need to feel we are part of some great Divine Plan, some Grand Purpose, some link to the realm of the eternal "Ether" of divinity that makes us so special ... so above everything ...
Again, you miss the point? and misjudge me in doing so. For in TRUTH? NONE of us are ?over? anyone else. Rather, we are ALL to be SERVANTS of one another? LESSER ones. But I can see how you might miss that truth in the things I share because I have found that most people want what they perceive I have because they THINK it will elevate them... as they THINK it has elevated me (or they think I think it has). Nothing could be further from the truth: it will not elevate you? or make you higher. It will instead, humble you? indeed, humiliate you? and bring you down. In the flesh, the Christ was not raised UP... but lowered. Get that? Through him, then, I have found that it is truly the ?lower? seat that is more desirable for me. Truly, I could not handle being higher up than any other. If you knew me, you would know that.
and of course this brings the ever necessary "faux humility" that we are "just like everyone else, we are sinners too, but our faith has brought us Divine blessings, anointing, a touch of the Spirit, that sets us apart" ... "and if you only listen to us, you too can be oh so blessed like we are."
Oh, Lordy! You really know how to ?read between the lines? don?t you? May I ask you a favor? Don?t. Please? Don?t read between the lines. Because there is nothing there? truly. What you see, with me, is what you get. Truly.
... AND ... every so-called "faith" makes these insulting claims, be it the various brands of Islam, Christianity, and even Judaism. These claims are similarly inherant in many tribal religions, whether deep in the heart of Africa, the ancient American Indians, or the secluded Buddists in Tibet.
What ?brand? would you put on me, then?
Faith, like a gun, in the hands of the True believer, is DANGEROUS. Not because true believers are insincere ... rather because they are most sincere, and willing to sacrifice everything for their invisible ghosts and "feelings" of being talked to by God that places them at risk of being manipulated by charletons. We only have to look back to 9-11 to see how sincere "true believers' in their spirituality ... in their oh so great "understanding" of spiritual things ... things too far above the average western "infidel" that causes them to fly planes into buildings
First, I have to say that such individuals probably felt justified in their actions? due not only on their faith in their ?god,? but as retribution for what the ?infidels? HAVE done in their lands? whether we wish to face THAT truth or not. Second, it is the "faith" of such "infidels" in their "god" that causes them to run all over the earth pushing their own form of government, whether others want it or not, out of fear that such form will someday make it to their land: killing "criminals" even before a crime has been committed, then crying "foul" when they are retaliated against. Earthling man... go figure.
Third, with regard to the former ones, I would have to say that if such ones belonged to the True God, the Most Holy One of Israel, the God of ABRAHAM... who they CLAIM to belong to... they, too, would not have taken such action? for ANY reason. Rather, they would have listened to His Son, who said vengeance belongs to God? and that it is God who?ll repay. They would not ?return evil for evil? or ?go reviling when being reviled.? IF they belonged to the God of Abraham, as they claim to. By their ?fruits? however, one would know that this claim? is untrue.

... this same level of thinking permeates most religions in some way ... and we see the results woven throughout the fabric of human society ... such "faith" and "true" belief is not confined to religion, but can be found in business and politics ... hence we have had our share of people like Adolph Hitler and the Nazis who were "true believers" ... who created a mess ... or the true believers in Allah who hate evil westerners ... or Christian cults who think all but members of their own cult will go to hell or die at Armageddon ...
There is none that the Father does not love... for there is none that the Christ does not love... save the "children of the Devil." Such one are those who hate their brother. I have not been taught by Christ as to who will go to hell or be destroyed. He doesn't "work" that way. Rather, he has taught me to have hope in the salvation of ALL of mankind... at this time.
Also, I "hear" you saying that simply because someone believes something is true doesn?t make it so. Can I argue with that? At one time I believed? as did most here? that what the WTBTS taught was true. Of course, it was/is not. Does that mean that what I come to believe as true since then is false? If so, would that not apply to what you believe? or don?t believe? as well? I also you to be saying a true believer in what IS true and good? is no different than a true believer in that which is bad; that truly believing is the commonality? and the crime.

I cannot make you believe as I do. I don?t WANT to make you believe as I do. I share what I do out of? the abundance of my heart. Whether you hear? or refrain. If you come to hear and see too, then PRAISE JAH! If you don't, what is that to me?
You take issue, however, because YOU perceive that I am saying that if you do NOT hear, then you are less than I am because I do? and I have a certain "favor" with God that you do not have. You are in error. I personally don?t care whether you believe me or not. I am only a messenger. If, then, the Master of the Household send me to the sons of his house, and I speak as I am given, and the sons choose not to hear? should I become distraught? Should I condemn you for not listening to ME? Should I even condemn you for not listening to HIM? I am just the messenger; I am not the Master, nor the exactor of his will.
Religious Faith is a serious human quality requiring maturity and responsibility.
Religious faith... will lead you to destruction. TRUE faith... does not require a joining with religion of ANY type.

Faith is not about taking one's "feelings" too seriously so as to think that what one experiences is coming from God ...
Faith... is not about feelings... at all! Faith? is the ASSURED expectation of the things hoped for? the EVIDENT DEMONSTRATION OF REALITIES? though NOT beheld. Let me ask you and you tell me, please, if you know: Noah built an ark. By what or whose direction? Are you sure? Was he? How do we know? How did HE know? Moses led Israel from Egypt. By whose direction? Are you sure? Was he? How do we know? How did HE know? Christ? was/is the Son of God. Says who? Are you sure? Was he? How do we know? How did HE know? Does not the Spirit... BEAR WITNESS... with OUR spirit?
nor should faith be centered on any Holy Book as some kind of proven work of God
I absolutely agree. For God does not speak to us by means of any holy book? and no longer by means of the scriptures which He gave us through the Prophets. God, who long ago spoke to us by means of the prophets, which prophets set such things down in writings, which are referred to as ?scripture,?? speaks to us TODAY? by means of a SON. Now, if you can?t HEAR that Son? how is it that he speaks to YOU? And if that Son says ?My sheep know MY voice,? how can one know such voice? and never HEAR it?

... rather, faith needs to be anchored by Hope
Faith is not only anchored by hope, it is the ASSURED EXPECTATION... OF THE THING HOPED FOR. So that? if I HOPE God will speak to me? hear me? answer me? by means of my FAITH? I can EXPECT it to be so. I can KNOW it, because I am ASSURED of it? ASSURED that what I HOPED for WILL occur? so that I can EXPECT it.
so that a person never becomes presumptuous and steps outside the boundary of intellectual honesty,
One should NEVER become presumptuous. However, ?boundary? of intellectual honesty encompasses more than what can be experienced by the flesh... for the flesh is not all that there is. Thus, the SPIRIT can perceive? even RECEIVE? that which goes OUTSIDE the boundary of the wisdom of THIS world.
but instead hopes that God will act, and hopes that more about God will be revealed that is true, solid and reliable.
And when that act is taken, that revelation is made and received... solid... true... and reliable... then what? What does one do when what one hopes for? expects? and receives by means of FAITH? occurs? Does that one keep it to himself? Or? does one do the ?natural? thing, which is to tell others? Even when exhorted to remain silent, did not those who my Lord committed fleshly miracles upon speak? How much more, then, would someone who received such in the SPIRIT?
Hope that can honestly see life for what it is and be willing to wait for answers and not mere claims.
Which life? The life of the flesh... or the life of the spirit? And how would such answers ?come,? dear one? From whom? What source?
Likewise, Faith must be tempered above all by love, which is what really keeps us genuinely humble, and steers us away from thinking that we have all the answers ...
By love, absolutely. Such faith and love would know that there is only One who has ALL the answers, the Father. Not even the SON has ALL the answers. I have not even a fraction. As I have said, the things I share are NOT mine, but that which I receive. There is no way I could know these things on my own. NO way.
that we are somehow inextricably linked to God in some divine cosmic program of having special spiritual insight above our fellow human ...
It is ?gift? that does not put one above another? for we all have potential to be members... of the same body. Okay, so I?m? an ear? rather than, say, a foot. And you?re? a hand. So what? Can the ear say to the hand, ?I have no need of you?? Or can the foot say to the ear, ?Because you?re not a foot, you?re no part of the body?? Hear and get the SENSE of it, dear Amazing: God sets the members in the body just as HE pleases. If, then, through Christ, He deemed me to be an ear? so what? That does not elevate me. It only gives me a job to DO: hear. And if He has deemed you a foot, then you are to do YOUR job: hold up the body? and walk. Which one can the body do better without? Would you rather give up your hearing? or your ability to walk? Would you not rather have BOTH? as well as have the body operate in harmony? How can that be, though, if you, a foot, deride the ear for doing its job? Or if you, the hand, tell the rest of the body to ignore the functions of the ear. Which part is more valuable? Either? Or neither? I say it is neither; the body functions best when ALL parts are in harmony, doing its respective job just as it designed to do.

Now, what if you were only a foot: can the foot hear? Perhaps not in the same manner as the ear? but does not the foot ?hear? to move from one place to another, so as to bear the body along? What would occur if your foot did NOT hear? did NOT get the signal? from the head? And is not Christ? the HEAD of the Body?
The Challenge to Claims of Faith and the Spirit: We, as ex-JWs know only too well how "claims" of men or women who think they represent God can cause so much pain, hurt, and harm. While we do not necessarily demand that the unseen must be proven by the visible using science, or the physical senses ... we must, however, walk with "extreme caution" about any claim, about any assertion, about any "feeling" that the could be, and probably is, filled with more harm than good ... and is likely a lie rather than any kind of divine truth or spirituality.
I would ABSOLUTELY agree! Absolutely!!! For there are MANY false christs and MANY false prophets!
Here are some questions that seem good to ask ourselves when people make spiritual claims and assert some fashion of faith:

1. How can we know if the thing claimed really comes from God?
First, we know that not all ?inspired expressions? originate with God, yes? So, then, are we not to TEST the inspired expression? How do we do that? The easiest way, then, is to examine the FRUITS of it, for it is by one?s FRUITS that we can know who and what one truly is, and by means of what spirit such one speaks, yes?
We can also examine the scriptures. By this, I mean Moses, the Prophets, the Psalms and the Revelation. We can also do as Moses and Elijah did, and put the ?god? of the one speaking to the test, yes?

OR? we can simply ASK GOD? through Christ? and exercise FAITH that we will receive the truth? and put faith IN that truth when we receive it. I mean, what did folks do BEFORE the scriptures? What we CANNOT do? is ask for a SIGN? a physical manifestation? for no sign will be given. Why? Because God? is a SPIRIT. And those worshipping Him must WORSHIP Him in spirit. Signs are for those LACKING faith? those who are of the flesh. The SPIRIT? is for those possessing faith? those who are of? the Spirit.

We are not without means to know if what we are being told is true or not, dear Amazing. It is only when we ourselves are either too lazy? or lacking in faith? so as to test it.
2. How do we test it to be sure it is not just the faux claim of the "True Believer?"
Oh, oops! Please see above.

3. If the claim is not from God, then what is its source? - The Devil? A deluded human?

If it is not from God, then, yep!
4. Is the claim just another interpretation of some Holy Book, e.g.:Bible, Koran, Torah, Book of Mormon, writings of some self-appointed prophet?
In some cases, it is. In my case, it is not. I do not put my faith in what is written on paper in delible ink, although from time to time such can serve as a ?second? witness to the truth of what I share, if someone NEEDS a second witness. I have been taught, however, to go with what my Lord writes? on my heart.
5. Does the claim cause any harm to people?
Okay, I?ll skip this one, ?cause I don?t think you?re referring to me. I am totally harmless; I am short, little, fat black lady who, for the most part, lives quietly and minds my own business. True, I share what I receive spiritually, but that?s about it. NO ONE has to believe it.
6. Does the claim do any real good for your fellow human?
I can?t answer that; I?ll have to let you and those who read what I post answer that for yourselves.
7. Most of all ... does it really and truly make any difference?
In what way?
Most people don't like being lied to ...
I certainly don?t? and don?t ever intend to be again! That is why rather than listening any longer to earthling man, I asked the Father to send me the Son? the TRUTH? to teach me the truth? and He did. Haven?t been lied to, since.
and we as ex-JWs don't ever again want to be victims of a lie.
Well, I know of only one "Way" to prevent that... and that is the receive the truth... from the Truth. Otherwise, you are certainly risking becoming such a victim again.
By exercising "Intellectual Honesty" we help ourselves avoid getting sucked up into claims of faith and spirituality ... we side-step would-be prophets and self-anointed leaders who wish to enslave us to their will ... we actually avoid displeasing any God, because we are not ready to accept such claims without proof it truly comes from Him / Her / It ...
I absolutely agree. I find it curious, however, that you read a message of displeasure by God into ANYTHING I?ve posted on this forum. Invitation, yes. Exhortation, yep. Forgiveness and acceptance, uh-huh. Hope, yep. Mercy and wonderful prospect for the future, indeed. But displeasure? Perhaps you judge yourself in ways neither God, Christ, nor I have done.

The Power of God's Silence: One true piece of evidence we have from any God is deafening silence ... silence to the pain and struggle of our human existence ... silence as to what or when he intends to do anything to help us from being victims of our own faux spirituality ... victims of faux faith ... victims of fantasy spirituality ... and instead ... where do we then find God, if at all?
We do NOT have God?s silence? and THAT? is a LIE. I am sorry to be so blunt, but I must - God SPEAKS! Unfortunately, you, like many others, wish to hear Him in the manner that YOU wish to hear Him? and NOT as He has told you HOW to hear HIM: ?This is my Son, the beloved. LISTEN? to HIM.? Which Son says, ?The sheep listen to HIS VOICE? the sheep follow him because they know HIS VOICE?? ?My sheep listen to MY VOICE.? That you do not? that you cannot? is not my fault? nor is it God?s. It is yours. Why? Because you don?t even believe he DOES speak? so that you CANNOT exercise the faith you need to to hear him when he DOES.
The power is in each of our hands ... to simply do the right thing ... to be a friend ... to show love ... to avoid presumption ... to resist claims of the spirit and assertions of special faith
?He that is ashamed of me before men, I will be ashamed of him before my Father in the heavens??

?Do not hide YOUR light under a basket, but let your light shine? before men??
... to concentrate on simple good ... perhaps we can find God in one another, if that term is proper to use, that is if we accept that God is love ... the power is with us all along to make a difference ... to make this life count now, today and not in some elusive "Ether-like" in the future.
Ether-like denotes surreal? fantasmic? phantomic. God is none of these things; He is a spirit, true, but not a phantom. He is indeed real? just as the spirit in each of us is real.
The people I most respect ... are those who do not sit around comtemplating the spirit, or proving their faith ... or trying to sell others on something, or convince new converts to some "-ism" ...
But I am seeking neither your respect? nor your approval. No TRUE servant of God would, for your respect holds no weight. Your respect cannot do a thing for me: it cannot elevate me, nor save me. It cannot even enlighten me. I do not look for the respect? or approval? of men. And that is the point you and others are missing: if it were your respect I wanted, I would remain silent, for I know you cannot receive the things I share.
but rather, the people I respect take responsibility now by becoming well educated ...
I am finishing my degree in English? taking the LSAT on June 14 th and starting law school in August. I intend to practice in real estate, employment, and contract law, with emphasis on the housing industry. But... so what?
by engaging in meaningful work that contributes to the betterment of humanity ...
I supervise management and maintenance of 13 low-income housing projects, with a staff of 39? and combined budgets of over $3.5 million, for a non-profit agency. But... so what?
people who build up worth of the race,
I?m Black (okay, African American - )? and damn proud of it. But... so what?
and not seek to destroy it ... doctors, nurses, lawyers (maybe),
Oh, oops, well there you go!

engineers, mothers,
I have (almost single-handedly) raised two (2) children, currently age 26 and 22; the first, a girl who is gainfully self-employed, who, part-time made close to $50,000 last year; a boy, who is a Program Supervisor for an agency that teaches high schoolers how to peer counsel middle and elementary school children against drug and alcohol abuse, who received an award from the California State Senate for his mentoring successes, who trains government workers in like programs all over the State of California, and who still holds the second of two jobs since he was 14; both of whom have NEVER given me even a MOMENTS trouble since they were born? and, for the record? are the ONLY ?accomplishments? in my life that I DO boast about, that I will NOT say "so what" about... for it was hard work even if they were/are good kids?
fathers, researchers, craftsmen and craftswomen, construction workers, designers, manufacturers, garbage collectors, ditch-diggers, wise business leaders and managers, accountants, good politicians, police and fire people, and many more ... these folks work hard, and by their daily contributions make our lives better every day
Ahhhh, I see: you think I do nothing but sit and post on JW.com all day! LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL! Dear one, I work full-time? (sometimes a 50-hour or more week, depending on how many Board meetings I have to go to) and attend university full time. I maintain a 3.667 GPA (although my work and health has made that difficult, from time to time!). Also, I am a diabetic, so I don?t always feel well enough to? ummmm? receive what some here dish out, and so I take ?breaks?. I have to. (SMILE!)
... they do not live in a world of cynicism, ever seeking ways to tear down human society ... rather, they keep on building and working and making a difference ... without whom we would be in dire straights ... many of these people do good works that are never seen by most, and many times are never paid for their service.
Have you read ?Atlas Shrugged? by Ayn Rand? EXCELLENT work? and quite in line with your thinking? and mine. Dear one, my belief in God and Christ? and in things spiritual? do not negate for me the ?realities? of the physical world (or rather, the illusions of reality). And I hate cynicism, which is why I love the Son SO much: he is NOT as religion has painted him... he OR the Father! Theirs is a message of love and hope... invitation and acceptance... not of doom and destuction... fear and trembling.
At the end of the day ... does our making special spiritual claims of faith and spirituality really bring worth, or merely frustration ...
I don?t know about making ?spiritual claims of faith,? but I do know that the work of a servant in the Household of God can indeed be frustrating, for Israel constantly lives up to its name: ?contender with God.? It is a hard-headed, hard-hearted, stiff-necked ?house?. But I am not the one who said it first.
and in making such claims are we failing to be truly honest with ourselves?
Just because one believes one is something does not make one something. And if one believes one is something? when one is nothing? then one is fooling oneself. I am a good-for-nothing- slave? and I have no illusions of grandeur about it. None at all. I know what I am and I do what I do? NOT because the rhetoric of some group of earthling men has told me I should? or some false sense of doom has compelled me? but out of LOVE. For God first, then Christ, then my neighbor. That?s it; that?s all.
As each day passes, it is one less day we have to do any good on this earth. It is one day less to be honest and find that all these claims of the spirit, these great expressions of faith are nothing but puffy showmanship. They do not feed the hungry or cloth the naked ...
If one were to prophesy? even if what is prophesied is TRUE? and one did not have love? such prophesying would be worthless. If one were to speak of things wonderful and spiritual, and yet closed the door of one?s tender compassions upon one?s brother? one?s neighbor? even one?s enemy? one will have shown him or her self NOT to be a child of God? but of the Adversary. I work, dear Amazing? and work hard? for one reason: so that I will have something to distribute to those in need. And I do. That I don?t go blowing a horn before me, have not set up some foundation with my name written all over it? do not belong to an ?organization? of any type that will give me kudos and make sure members know my name and what I gave and when? does not mean I don?t. I know that my Father who is in the heavens will repay me: He always does? pressed down and overflowing. Every time.
or cause even a moment of love between two people ...
You've made me smile, as I just thought of those I love? who love me? and with whom I had the privilege of being taught love? by my Lord. They are many... and some are even here... observing this interchange between you and I. And given their usual "MOs"... you'd be surprised...
they are an insult to our humanity, and a grand waste our time. I would rather spend a thousand days helping to feed the hungry than waste even one hour pondering the meanig of faith.
Then I would say to you: Foot, be about YOUR work? and do not be concerning yourself with mine.

I bid you the greatest of peace, and I am,

YOUR servant? and a slave of Christ to time indefinite?

SJ
LittleToe

"For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"
Words attributed to Jesus of Nazereth, by First Century writer Mark (8:36, KJV)
larc

I respect both Amazing and Aguest in expressing their point of view. I think they are both good people. They are very different in their opinions, but they are both good people.
LittleToe

I forgot to mention...
...wb larc
Good to see someone who has contributed so much to JWD in the past, return.
For those who haven't read your posts, I heartily recommend them (there have been literally hundreds of new posters, over the last little while).
larc

Thank you Little Toe, I would post more often, but there has been a problem with webtv and this place. Now, I can post again for about an hour. For awhile, I couln't post at all.
Amazing1914

Aguest,
While my post drew upon your comments from a post of yours, it was not targeting you, nor criticizing your brand of faith. Since you responded, however, I will take issue with some of your points:
In your opening in every post you state:
?May you have peace!?

Jesus said that he came not to bring peace, but a sword, to cause division. Why do you wish for something that in out of sync with Jesus' mission? I am not serious here, but my point is to illustrate how anyone can take any verse, or Biblical sounding language to promote themselves as godly.
?Imagine my surprise when I opened this thread and saw my name! Yikes, I said; what now? I think there are a lot of similarities in our thinking, and some not so much. But I would like to respond, if I may, and hope that you will take this in the spirit... and "tone" that I intend. Please... do not read between the lines, for there is nothing there. I am what I am; I say what I mean and mean what I say... without nothing hidden. Alrighty then??

No offense taken, nor intended.
?That you are addressing ?intelligent? minds perhaps leaves me out, dear Amazing1914, but since I (or what I posted) am/is the subject of this thread, I'll continue. Please bear with my lack of intelligence... or omission of intelligent honesty, as you perceive that to have occurred.?

I was not attacking your intelligence.

?I confess to you and everyone here: I am a ?foolish? thing, and so much of what I post may sound foolish. That is absolutely true and I do not take issue with your perception of that.?

What possesses you to constantly remind every reader with this long sounding language of how humble you are? While the Apostle Paul used this language in limited context, when Christians constantly use such expressions they lose their impact, and smack of false humility.

My earlier comment: The lead in sentence continues the ever-constant theme that we humans are these physical creatures that have a hard time discerning spiritual things ... because we demand physical evidence that meets our senses head on
?Which statement, while perhaps appearing foolish... is also true? ?

No, it is not true. It is a mere claim perpetrated by a false understanding of the Bible, a false understanding of fellow humans, and smacks of pride in a judgmental sense ? the very kind of judgment condemned by the Lord Jesus Christ. We could easily spends a very long post exchange on why this is so.
?I TRULY apologize if my post made you feel that way. Indeed, you ?sound? offended, which was not my intention at all, truly. May I quote you something that I have always thought to be VERY intelligent? Please note that this truly is a quote; I myself could not have come up with something so? sublime: ?Do not hurry yourself in your spirit to become offended, for the taking of offense is what rests in the bosom of the stupid ones.?

The written word does not afford the benefit of ?sound? ? therefore you presume I am offended. I am not offended. I am concerned.
?Now, that might not sound so intelligent ... or honest... to you, but personally, I think it?s pure genius.?

Quoting that verse is not necessary, nor does it add anything to the main issue of making spiritual claims.
?Actually, we are not spiritual enough, but I'm not sure you would understand that. It is because we HIDE what we truly are and are NOT honest... that such problems exist. You are correct, however, in saying that we should break free and I applaud ALL ?honesty? that has to ability to loosen the hold of religion on mankind. However, what I share is not born of religion, does not direct one to religion, and has no sharing with religion. It is not, however, unknowable and unprovable? and actually REQUIRES honesty? in its purest form? but honesty? from the SPIRIT? the man you are INSIDE.?

Nice words, but prove nothing ? as always ? lots of nice sounding words ? you can pick up any work by spiritual leaders, such as Dali Lama, or Chuck Russell, etc. and they all say nice sounding words, with nice sounding claims ? but look at the results of their claims. People are too spiritual, and tend to easily follow nice sounding words. They all claims that their brand of spirituality is pure, honest, true, good, etc. etc. etc ? but none of it amounts to a hill of beans.
?I?ll give you an example: what if were to hide what I hear and see? keep it to myself? did not confess or share it. Would that be HONEST? What if I, in wanting to be perceived as ?intelligent? rather than foolish, spoke of things of which I do not know (such as rocket science) and then pretended to know nothing of what I do? Would that be HONEST? It amazes me that folks say they don?t want to be lied to? and yet, it seems to ME that that is EXACTLY what they want? if the truth is beyond their comprehension.?

You are certainly free to speak about anything, whether it is true or not. The point is ANYONE can say they saw and heard things, and feel compelled to tell about it. That is not the issue, but rather, IS what they convey the truth? How on earth do I know whether anything you, or Charles Russell, or the Pope have seen or spoken with God?
?It is not the ?faux sense? of spirituality that has served religion, dear Amazing. It is the ?faux?.... ummmm... truth... about spirituality itself. Religion has taught that the spirit is an unknown thing, intangible and uncertain. Why? Because they cannot explain what they do not know. So, they make up things. And since in truth we ARE spiritual beings? actually MORE spirit than flesh... ?

You now admit that we are more spiritual than physical ? yet earlier you claim that we are not able to understand spiritual things. Which is it?
? ? (if you lost a part of your physical body, would you yourself be diminished?), we tend to believe the lies, as they appeal to our LACK of honesty. That is why I share what I do? without a pulpit, without a church, without a magazine, without a request for donations or contributions? and I tell you EXACTLY from whom I received it. I do not take credit for it? for it is not mine.?

The lack of a church, donations, or magazines is irrelevant. What you share AGuest is your beliefs based in what you have told yourself is true, what you have claimed to yourself is from God. Unless you are an inspired prophet who can demonstrate you have God?s backing and direction, then why should anyone believe anything you say with respect to what you claim you have been given? Rather, the Apostles warned us to look out for ?wolves in Sheeps clothing.? C onstantly reminding people how humble you are scares the hell out of me, just like a predator who is trying to sooth its victim before it strikes. I am not judging you or saying that is true for you, but I am concerned.
?The PROBLEM? is that earthling man has been SO misled by religion? SO lied to? SO deceived? that like many, you?re at a point where ANYTHING that speaks of ANYTHING having to do with ANYTHING "spiritual"? is suspect. And that is as it should be. It is for that very reason that I tell you: do NOT listen to me? but to the One who speaks to YOU, too? from the heavens.?

I believe that it is the constant prayer of kind and unassuming Christians who helped pull me out of the Watchtower den of thieves ? and not listening to self appointed prophets or prophetesses. I find their humility important because they never once told me how humble they are.
?Again, you miss the point? and misjudge me in doing so. For in TRUTH? NONE of us are ?over? anyone else. Rather, we are ALL to be SERVANTS of one another? LESSER ones. But I can see how you might miss that truth in the things I share because I have found that most people want what they perceive I have because they THINK it will elevate them... as they THINK it has elevated me (or they think I think it has). Nothing could be further from the truth: it will not elevate you? or make you higher. It will instead, humble you? indeed, humiliate you? and bring you down. In the flesh, the Christ was not raised UP... but lowered. Get that? Through him, then, I have found that it is truly the ?lower? seat that is more desirable for me. Truly, I could not handle being higher up than any other. If you knew me, you would know that.?

Again, false humility and the constant need to remind everyone of the great depths of humility. Why? And your comment is irrelevant to my point.
?Oh, Lordy! You really know how to ?read between the lines? don?t you? May I ask you a favor? Don?t. Please? Don?t read between the lines. Because there is nothing there? truly. What you see, with me, is what you get. Truly.?

I was not reading between any lines. I was making a point.
?What ?brand? would you put on me, then??

What brand do you claim to be?
My earlier comment: Faith, like a gun, in the hands of the True believer, is DANGEROUS .Not because true believers are insincere ... rather because they are most sincere, and willing to sacrifice everything for their invisible ghosts and "feelings" of being talked to by God that places them at risk of being manipulated by charletons. We only have to look back to 9-11 to see how sincere "true believers' in their spirituality ... in their oh so great "understanding" of spiritual things ... things too far above the average western "infidel" that causes them to fly planes into buildings
?First, I have to say that such individuals probably felt justified in their actions? due not only on their faith in their ?god,? but as retribution for what the ?infidels? HAVE done in their lands? whether we wish to face THAT truth or not.?

Genuine people of faith NEVER feel justified in doing such things. What have ?infidels? done? Why, because their armies were present by invitation in Saudi Arabia, the so-called men of faith said that their ?HOLY? ground was being violated. Hence, JIHAD!!! Yea, right ?
?Second, it is the "faith" of such "infidels" in their "god" that causes them to run all over the earth pushing their own form of government, whether others want it or not, ? ?

That is a sickening and false claim. If the people of Iraq, for example, vote to be ruled by Mullahs then they have made a choice ? but as it stands, it was the madman Saddam Hussein and his minions who forced a wicked government on his own people ? it was the west who took him out. The west has not forced any government on the Iraqi people ... rather, the west is trying to help them choose their own government for the first time in their lives. It had little to with God, and much more to do with stopping a madman who were he to have or attain weapons of mass destruction would use them ? on the west ? just as he already did on the Kurds ? on innocent men, women, and children.
? ? out of fear that such form will someday make it to their land: killing "criminals" even before a crime has been committed, then crying "foul" when they are retaliated against. Earthling man... go figure.?

Nonsense ? smacks of silly conspiracy theories.
?Third, with regard to the former ones, I would have to say that if such ones belonged to the True God, the Most Holy One of Israel, the God of ABRAHAM... who they CLAIM to belong to... they, too, would not have taken such action? for ANY reason. Rather, they would have listened to His Son, who said vengeance belongs to God? and that it is God who?ll repay. They would not ?return evil for evil? or ?go reviling when being reviled.? IF they belonged to the God of Abraham, as they claim to. By their ?fruits? however, one would know that this claim? is untrue. ?

The Bible speaks of Caesar acting as God?s ?MINISTER? to carry out justice, even executing with the Sword. So, is acting as God?s ?minister? unchristian revenge, or is it the WILL of God?
?There is none that the Father does not love... for there is none that the Christ does not love... save the "children of the Devil." Such one are those who hate their brother. I have not been taught by Christ as to who will go to hell or be destroyed. He doesn't "work" that way. Rather, he has taught me to have hope in the salvation of ALL of mankind... at this time.?

Good.
?Also, I "hear" you saying that simply because someone believes something is true doesn?t make it so. Can I argue with that? At one time I believed? as did most here? that what the WTBTS taught was true. Of course, it was/is not. Does that mean that what I come to believe as true since then is false? If so, would that not apply to what you believe? or don?t believe? as well? I also you to be saying a true believer in what IS true and good? is no different than a true believer in that which is bad; that truly believing is the commonality? and the crime.?

The term :True Believer? was coined by Eric Hoffer in the book, ?The True Believer.? Belief in and of itself is okay as far as it goes, but it is irrelevant to facts ? for a particular belief about some thing could be factual or not. As stated earlier, I believe that quiet, unassuming Christians prayed me out of the Watchtower ? a point made in one of my Exit Series posts. But, it is just that, a belief, an unprovable belief. It does not make it good or bad. The point of my post was not to ridicule all people of faith, but to highlight the lack of intellectual honesty I find in many.
?I cannot make you believe as I do. I don?t WANT to make you believe as I do. I share what I do out of? the abundance of my heart. Whether you hear? or refrain. If you come to hear and see too, then PRAISE JAH! If you don't, what is that to me??

And, your point? I never said anything about you trying to make me believe anything. My post is about intellectual honesty.
?You take issue, however, because YOU perceive that I am saying that if you do NOT hear, then you are less than I am because I do? and I have a certain "favor" with God that you do not have. You are in error. I personally don?t care whether you believe me or not. I am only a messenger. If, then, the Master of the Household send me to the sons of his house, and I speak as I am given, and the sons choose not to hear? should I become distraught? Should I condemn you for not listening to ME? Should I even condemn you for not listening to HIM? I am just the messenger; I am not the Master, nor the exactor of his will.?

The fact that you ?presume? people are not listening, is proven by your own statement that you are some kind of ?messenger.? The fact that you don?t care if people ?me? believe or not also demonstrates something rather curious ? that is ? God cares, as he desires none to be destroyed, but for ALL to be saved. If he cares, and you were his messenger, then you would care.
My earlier comment: Religious Faith is a serious human quality requiring maturity and responsibility.
?Religious faith... will lead you to destruction. TRUE faith... does not require a joining with religion of ANY type.?

You confuse ?religion? and ?religious.? They are different. I used the term ?religious? to distinguish between faith in general and that which is focused on God. There is no such thing as ?True? faith. For faith simply is. A person either has faith in something or they do not. I have faith that the police will not rob banks. I have faith that my wife will not have sex with another man. I have faith in Jesus. I have faith in whatever ? does not make my faith ?true? or otherwise ? it just is.
?Faith... is not about feelings... at all! Faith? is the ASSURED expectation of the things hoped for? the EVIDENT DEMONSTRATION OF REALITIES? though NOT beheld.?

This is New World Translation language ? why do you quote from the false Devil Bible that denies the divinity of Christ? Now, let?s use the True Bible ? the King James, Authorized Version ? which says at Hebrews 11:1, ?Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.?
WOW!!! BIG DIFFERENCE!!! (no yelling intended). Nothing ?assured? ? for faith is the ?substance? of things hoped for ? a point I make in my post above. Hope must drive faith and faith is from that hope. Faith is in itself the evidence of unseen things ? but it is not proof of anything ? and it is NOT the demonstration of any REALITY ? and that is why you, and others, have been misled by the devil Bible which corrupts the message from the Master.
?Let me ask you and you tell me, please, if you know: Noah built an ark. By what or whose direction? Are you sure? Was he? How do we know? How did HE know??

Ahhh ? more religious language from Job ? okay ? now, let?s look at hard reality ? Noah may have built an Ark ? but I cannot say anything about this Jewish fable ? for there was no Global flood ? science has proven that ? maybe there was a local flood. What Noah knew or did not know is not for me to prove ? it is for Noah to decide what he believes and whether God really spoke to him ? I have no evidence one way or another.
?Moses led Israel from Egypt. By whose direction? Are you sure? Was he? How do we know? How did HE know??

Jewish history states this in the Hebrew Bible. But I cannot prove anything ? it could be another Jewish fable or embellished historical facts. It is a matter of interpretation.
?Christ? was/is the Son of God. Says who? Are you sure? Was he? How do we know? How did HE know? Does not the Spirit... BEAR WITNESS... with OUR spirit??

I believe in Jesus Christ as my savior. I cannot speak beyond whatever he taught.
?I absolutely agree. For God does not speak to us by means of any holy book? and no longer by means of the scriptures which He gave us through the Prophets. God, who long ago spoke to us by means of the prophets, which prophets set such things down in writings, which are referred to as ?scripture,?? speaks to us TODAY? by means of a SON. Now, if you can?t HEAR that Son? how is it that he speaks to YOU? And if that Son says ?My sheep know MY voice,? how can one know such voice? and never HEAR it??

Good, now we are getting somewhere. The answer is: ?..
?Faith is not only anchored by hope, it is the ASSURED EXPECTATION... OF THE THING HOPED FOR. So that? if I HOPE God will speak to me? hear me? answer me? by means of my FAITH? I can EXPECT it to be so. I can KNOW it, because I am ASSURED of it? ASSURED that what I HOPED for WILL occur? so that I can EXPECT it.?

Again, Faith is not the ?assured expectation? for as I noted above, that is from the Devil Bible. Rather, Faith itself is the substance of hope ? in other words it is the result of hope, because it is anchored in hope.
I hope there is a God, and this results in my having faith that there is a God. I hope in the salvation of Christ, and therefore, I have faith in being saved by Jesus. I hope to go to heaven and live with God eternally, and as a result of this hope, I have faith it will happen.
?One should NEVER become presumptuous. However, ?boundary? of intellectual honesty encompasses more than what can be experienced by the flesh... for the flesh is not all that there is. Thus, the SPIRIT can perceive? even RECEIVE? that which goes OUTSIDE the boundary of the wisdom of THIS world."

I understand what you are trying to say, but it misses my point that many people who claim faith do go beyond such honesty ... and this results in being presumptuous.
?And when that act is taken, that revelation is made and received... solid... true... and reliable... then what? What does one do when what one hopes for? expects? and receives by means of FAITH? occurs? Does that one keep it to himself? Or? does one do the ?natural? thing, which is to tell others? Even when exhorted to remain silent, did not those who my Lord committed fleshly miracles upon speak? How much more, then, would someone who received such in the SPIRIT??

When that happens ? we will see. Until then, we cannot see or predict what we will do.
?Which life? The life of the flesh... or the life of the spirit? And how would such answers ?come,? dear one? From whom? What source??

Both. For God gave us both. Be content to wait and see ? and not try to speculate beyond that.
?By love, absolutely. Such faith and love would know that there is only One who has ALL the answers, the Father. Not even the SON has ALL the answers. I have not even a fraction. As I have said, the things I share are NOT mine, but that which I receive. There is no way I could know these things on my own. NO way.?

You received what, from whom? How am I or anyone to know?
?It is ?gift? that does not put one above another? for we all have potential to be members... of the same body. Okay, so I?m? an ear? rather than, say, a foot. And you?re? a hand. So what? Can the ear say to the hand, ?I have no need of you?? Or can the foot say to the ear, ?Because you?re not a foot, you?re no part of the body?? Hear and get the SENSE of it, dear Amazing: God sets the members in the body just as HE pleases. If, then, through Christ, He deemed me to be an ear? so what? That does not elevate me. It only gives me a job to DO: hear. And if He has deemed you a foot, then you are to do YOUR job: hold up the body? and walk. Which one can the body do better without? Would you rather give up your hearing? or your ability to walk? Would you not rather have BOTH? as well as have the body operate in harmony? How can that be, though, if you, a foot, deride the ear for doing its job? Or if you, the hand, tell the rest of the body to ignore the functions of the ear. Which part is more valuable? Either? Or neither? I say it is neither; the body functions best when ALL parts are in harmony, doing its respective job just as it designed to do. Now, what if you were only a foot: can the foot hear? Perhaps not in the same manner as the ear? but does not the foot ?hear? to move from one place to another, so as to bear the body along? What would occur if your foot did NOT hear? did NOT get the signal? from the head? And is not Christ? the HEAD of the Body??

My post does not deal with the ?spiritual body of Christ? as described figuratively by the Apostle Paul. Rather, I am speaking to people who make special claims about their faith.
?I would ABSOLUTELY agree! Absolutely!!! For there are MANY false christs and MANY false prophets!?

Amen.

My earlier comment: 1. How can we know if the thing claimed really comes from God?
?First, we know that not all ?inspired expressions? originate with God, yes? So, then, are we not to TEST the inspired expression? How do we do that? The easiest way, then, is to examine the FRUITS of it, for it is by one?s FRUITS that we can know who and what one truly is, and by means of what spirit such one speaks, yes??

Anyone can claim and promote their works as being of the spirit ? the Watchtower Society is an expert of talking, promoting, and applying the Bible to themselves, and the fruit of the spirit is no exception. They likewise claim to test everything.
My point is that each individual must do the testing ? and so far, I have yet to find anything that can hold up to the test.
?We can also examine the scriptures. By this, I mean Moses, the Prophets, the Psalms and the Revelation. We can also do as Moses and Elijah did, and put the ?god? of the one speaking to the test, yes??

The Watchtower Society and other cults and individual loose cannons also claim they search the Scriptures as well ? and look at the mess we have with hundreds, maybe thousands of sects.
?OR? we can simply ASK GOD? through Christ? and exercise FAITH that we will receive the truth? and put faith IN that truth when we receive it.?

Yep, and don?t run around claiming one has received such truth until it is truly received ? and even then, I would go to a shrink and have my head examined before I start telling the world that God spoke to me.
?I mean, what did folks do BEFORE the scriptures? What we CANNOT do? is ask for a SIGN? a physical manifestation? for no sign will be given. Why? Because God? is a SPIRIT. And those worshipping Him must WORSHIP Him in spirit. Signs are for those LACKING faith? those who are of the flesh. The SPIRIT? is for those possessing faith? those who are of? the Spirit.?

Just to be clear, I never spoke of signs. I speak of people making special spiritual claims ?
?We are not without means to know if what we are being told is true or not, dear Amazing. It is only when we ourselves are either too lazy? or lacking in faith? so as to test it.?

Whoa ? now you scare me again ? lazy? Lacking faith? Sounds all to familiar with Watchtower-speak to bring guilt and fear upon our heads. What then are the means to know the ?truth? as you speak of it? We cannot prove anything.
My earlier comment: 3. If the claim is not from God, then what is its source? - The Devil? A deluded human?
?If it is not from God, then, yep!?

This makes my point. Proving what one believes is impossible to prove. Therefore, no one can know if anything is from God. What we have is not provable knowledge, but rather faith. Faith does not run around telling people about claims ? faith is what the individual has within themselves ? for there is no way to test and prove a claim.

Joseph Smith claims the Angel Moroni gave him the Golden Plates (well they were also called brass at one point, but ? ) and how can anyone test that? Can you or I say that Joey Smith was a false prophet? Can we say that God did not speak to him? Ten million Mormons have faith that Jesus appointed Joey Smith to his position to lead modern Christians to some destiny. Who are we to debate that? Is it from God or the Devil or a deluded human? Prove it, one way or the other!
?In some cases, it is. In my case, it is not. I do not put my faith in what is written on paper in delible ink, although from time to time such can serve as a ?second? witness to the truth of what I share, if someone NEEDS a second witness. I have been taught, however, to go with what my Lord writes? on my heart.?

AND ?that is good for you, Aguest. But there is know way for me or anyone to know what God has or has not done for you. And to try and somehow prove this is to be intellectually dishonest.
My earlier comment: 5. Does the claim cause any harm to people?
?Okay, I?ll skip this one, ?cause I don?t think you?re referring to me. I am totally harmless; I am short, little, fat black lady who, for the most part, lives quietly and minds my own business. True, I share what I receive spiritually, but that?s about it. NO ONE has to believe it.?

The harm is not what a person making a claim might do, such as beat people up or rob banks ? no, rather, the harm might be the influence on others to believe something that does not come from God. So, how can people know that anything you or others who make special spiritual claims really have it from God? The point is, we don?t.
My earlier comment: 6. Does the claim do any real good for your fellow human?
?I can?t answer that; I?ll have to let you and those who read what I post answer that for yourselves.?

If you believed what you have is good and from God, then you should have answered yes, you believe that in your case it does do good.
My earlier comment: 7. Most of all ... does it really and truly make any difference?
?In what way??

If the spiritual claim is true and is from God, then the difference is our salvation. If not from God, then it is for nothing, and has no real affect, and makes no real difference. So, again, how can anyone know if a special spiritual claim comes from God. What does intellectual honesty demand?
My earlier comment: Most people don't like being lied to ...
?I certainly don?t? and don?t ever intend to be again! That is why rather than listening any longer to earthling man, I asked the Father to send me the Son? the TRUTH? to teach me the truth? and He did. Haven?t been lied to, since.?

Many have asked for the same thing and all they really received is silence. What did they do wrong? And now here we get to the crux of my post:
Some people ask God to send Jesus into their lives ? and then they believe he has, and then they begin living as though God has really done that. Whereas others ask, but in their honesty, they wait to see what God is going to do. Who is right? Is the one making the claim that they heard from God merely deluding themselves? Or is the one waiting and hoping but not receiving doing something wrong?
My earlier comment: ... and we as ex-JWs don't ever again want to be victims of a lie .
?Well, I know of only one "Way" to prevent that... and that is the receive the truth... from the Truth. Otherwise, you are certainly risking becoming such a victim again.?

And that is the also the core of this post ? that is ? what is the truth? How can anyone know what they have is the truth? Or is simply being content to have faith anchored in hope and love enough? Does one really have to have the Truth â ? or is perhaps this quest for ?Truth? the real problem? Why cannot faith, hope and love be enough?
My earlier comment: By exercising "Intellectual Honesty" we help ourselves avoid getting sucked up into claims of faith and spirituality ... we side-step would-be prophets and self-anointed leaders who wish to enslave us to their will ... we actually avoid displeasing any God, because we are not ready to accept such claims without proof it truly comes from Him / Her / It ...
?I absolutely agree. I find it curious, however, that you read a message of displeasure by God into ANYTHING I?ve posted on this forum.?

I didn?t. I took one comment from something you said, and built a post on that single point. I cited you as the source since I used your words to make my point. I buffered it by saying that my post is not an attack on you ? but on a certain type of thinking.
My earlier comment: The Power of God's Silence : One true piece of evidence we have from any God is deafening silence ... silence to the pain and struggle of our human existence ... silence as to what or when he intends to do anything to help us from being victims of our own faux spirituality ... victims of faux faith ... victims of fantasy spirituality ... and instead ... where do we then find God, if at all?
?We do NOT have God?s silence? and THAT? is a LIE. I am sorry to be so blunt, but I must - God SPEAKS! Unfortunately, you, like many others, wish to hear Him in the manner that YOU wish to hear Him? and NOT as He has told you HOW to hear HIM: ?This is my Son, the beloved. LISTEN? to HIM.? Which Son says, ?The sheep listen to HIS VOICE? the sheep follow him because they know HIS VOICE??

Before you call me a liar, and cite all sorts of verses from the Devil Bible (NWT) ? lets step back a minute. God IS silent by the fact that His permissive Will allows evil to exist on this world ? when a child dies from a drive-by shooting we do not hear God shout out in pain or use his power to restore that which was stolen ? no, we hear humans mourn as our legal system fails to find the criminal or fails to properly prosecute ? and no matter, the life is gone, and God stands by silent.
Your response only addressed nice sounding words about listening to God ? and not what he actually does do ? which is nothing! I did not say that was bad or good ? on that it is being honest to say what everyone experiences ? God doing nothing.
? ? ?My sheep listen to MY VOICE.? That you do not? that you cannot? is not my fault? nor is it God?s. It is yours. Why? Because you don?t even believe he DOES speak? so that you CANNOT exercise the faith you need to to hear him when he DOES.?

I did not say that God never speaks ? I just cannot prove when he has spoken, what he said, or to whom! My own faith is not built upon what I think God has or has not said, but upon hope and love. But, I honestly have to say that I do not like or understand God?s silence and permissive will ? that is what being honest means. I think God is wrong in doing things the way he does ? but, I did not say that I don?t try to listen. I only observe silence.
My earlier comment: The power is in each of our hands ... to simply do the right thing ... to be a friend ... to show love ... to avoid presumption ... to resist claims of the spirit and assertions of special faith
?He that is ashamed of me before men, I will be ashamed of him before my Father in the heavens?? ... ?Do not hide YOUR light under a basket, but let your light shine? before men??

If God has given a person light ? then fine ? but, I have yet to find anyone who can prove that they have gotten their light from God ? rather, I find a lot of double talk and steering around the hard questions ? none of this has anything to do with guilt, shame, and fear ? rather it is about being honest, intellectually honest.
My earlier comments: ... to concentrate on simple good ... perhaps we can find God in one another, if that term is proper to use, that is if we accept that God is love ... the power is with us all along to make a difference ... to make this life count now, today and not in some elusive "Ether-like" in the future.
?Ether-like denotes surreal? fantasmic? phantomic. God is none of these things; He is a spirit, true, but not a phantom. He is indeed real? just as the spirit in each of us is real.?

I used ?ether? in the figurative sense ? it actually refers to the one time ?belief? that light traveled by an invisible medium that was filling the universe. Science has since disproved the existence of this ?Ether? and hence the belief in it died.
My earlier comments: The people I most respect ... are those who do not sit around comtemplating the spirit, or proving their faith ... or trying to sell others on something, or convince new converts to some "-ism" ...
?But I am seeking neither your respect? nor your approval. No TRUE servant of God would, for your respect holds no weight. Your respect cannot do a thing for me: it cannot elevate me, nor save me. It cannot even enlighten me. I do not look for the respect? or approval? of men. And that is the point you and others are missing: if it were your respect I wanted, I would remain silent, for I know you cannot receive the things I share.?

I wasn?t speaking of you needing or wanting my respect. I was speaking of my own respect for those who make a difference in this life ?
My earlier comments: but rather, the people I respect take responsibility now by becoming well educated ...
?I am finishing my degree in English? taking the LSAT on June 14 th and starting law school in August. I intend to practice in real estate, employment, and contract law, with emphasis on the housing industry. But... so what? ?

Cool ? I too am back in the diploma factory ? to be a lawyer ? I already work in real estate ? I am also an electrical engineer ?
My earlier comment: by engaging in meaningful work that contributes to the betterment of humanity ...
?I supervise management and maintenance of 13 low-income housing projects, with a staff of 39? and combined budgets of over $3.5 million, for a non-profit agency. But... so what??

Excellent! You are doing something that helps people ? that is what ? so why dismiss this good work ? the disciple James said that our faith produces works ? and he sited clothing, feeding, and housing those in need ?
My earlier comment: people who build up worth of the race,
"I?m Black (okay, African American - )? and damn proud of it. But... so what??

I was speaking of the human race ? as the children of God ? of which I have faith we are ? and not to a specific branch of that race. I have no reason to be proud of my ethnic race or not ? it is irrelevant.
My earlier comment: and not seek to destroy it ... doctors, nurses, lawyers (maybe),
?Oh, oops, well there you go!?

Some lawyers are good ? but that profession has great potential for un-good.
My earlier comment: engineers, mothers,
?I have (almost single-handedly) raised two (2) children, currently age 26 and 22; the first, a girl who is gainfully self-employed, who, part-time made close to $50,000 last year; a boy, who is a Program Supervisor for an agency that teaches high schoolers how to peer counsel middle and elementary school children against drug and alcohol abuse, who received an award from the California State Senate for his mentoring successes, who trains government workers in like programs all over the State of California, and who still holds the second of two jobs since he was 14; both of whom have NEVER given me even a MOMENTS trouble since they were born? and, for the record? are the ONLY ?accomplishments? in my life that I DO boast about, that I will NOT say "so what" about... for it was hard work even if they were/are good kids??

Excellent!
My earlier comment: ... fathers, researchers, craftsmen and craftswomen, construction workers, designers, manufacturers, garbage collectors, ditch-diggers, wise business leaders and managers, accountants, good politicians, police and fire people, and many more ... these folks work hard, and by their daily contributions make our lives better every day
?Ahhhh, I see: you think I do nothing but sit and post on JW.com all day!?
I never said anywhere what I think you do or don?t do. I was speaking globally, and since you are getting a degree in English you should know better by now not to add in things I never stated.
?LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL! Dear one, I work full-time? (sometimes a 50-hour or more week, depending on how many Board meetings I have to go to) and attend university full time. I maintain a 3.667 GPA (although my work and health has made that difficult, from time to time!). Also, I am a diabetic, so I don?t always feel well enough to? ummmm? receive what some here dish out, and so I take ?breaks?. I have to. (SMILE!)?

Great!
My earlier comment: ... they do not live in a world of cynicism, ever seeking ways to tear down human society ... rather, they keep on building and working and making a difference ... without whom we would be in dire straights ... many of these people do good works that are never seen by most, and many times are never paid for their service.
?Have you read ?Atlas Shrugged? by Ayn Rand? EXCELLENT work? and quite in line with your thinking? and mine. Dear one, my belief in God and Christ? and in things spiritual? do not negate for me the ?realities? of the physical world (or rather, the illusions of reality). And I hate cynicism, which is why I love the Son SO much: he is NOT as religion has painted him... he OR the Father! Theirs is a message of love and hope... invitation and acceptance... not of doom and destuction... fear and trembling.?

No, I have not read ?Atlas Shrugged.? ?
My earlier comment: At the end of the day ... does our making special spiritual claims of faith and spirituality really bring worth, or merely frustration ...
?I don?t know about making ?spiritual claims of faith,? but I do know that the work of a servant in the Household of God can indeed be frustrating, for Israel constantly lives up to its name: ?contender with God.? It is a hard-headed, hard-hearted, stiff-necked ?house?. But I am not the one who said it first.?

Well, this is a specific interpretation on certain Bible verses that I do not subscribe to as some who claim to be Christian. I will not comment as that is for another post.
My earlier comment: ... and in making such claims are we failing to be truly honest with ourselves?
?Just because one believes one is something does not make one something. And if one believes one is something? when one is nothing? then one is fooling oneself. I am a good-for-nothing- slave? and I have no illusions of grandeur about it. None at all. I know what I am and I do what I do? NOT because the rhetoric of some group of earthling men has told me I should? or some false sense of doom has compelled me? but out of LOVE. For God first, then Christ, then my neighbor. That?s it; that?s all.?

That is fine. I am speaking to those who make special spiritual claims ? and sometimes individuals, whether Christian or otherwise, get too loaded on God to the point where they believe more than what is there ? and their belief causes them to try and act religious and prophetic sounding ? and then some go beyond that and start to think they are specially appointed prophets ? Ellen G. White, Charles Russell, Rutherford (lawyer), John Thomas, Joseph Smith, William Miller ? and many more ? all with their followers included.
Jim Jones started out a real nice guy ? a pastor of a small independent church in the Midwest ? then he got involved in community activities ? this was fine ? and then he moved to San Francisco and took up as pastor of another church ? and he likewise became involved in community programs and activities in the Bay Area. He began thinking that God was speaking through him ? and his fellow church members began attributing more of God to him ? and he dismissed this at first because he was just a ?fellow slave? ? well, now , what happened to this oh so humble man ? this simple humble servant of God? He ended up killing nearly 1,000 True Believers.
My earlier comment: As each day passes, it is one less day we have to do any good on this earth. It is one day less to be honest and find that all these claims of the spirit, these great expressions of faith are nothing but puffy showmanship. They do not feed the hungry or cloth the naked ...
?If one were to prophesy? even if what is prophesied is TRUE? and one did not have love? such prophesying would be worthless. If one were to speak of things wonderful and spiritual, and yet closed the door of one?s tender compassions upon one?s brother? one?s neighbor? even one?s enemy? one will have shown him or her self NOT to be a child of God? but of the Adversary. I work, dear Amazing? and work hard? for one reason: so that I will have something to distribute to those in need. And I do. That I don?t go blowing a horn before me, have not set up some foundation with my name written all over it? do not belong to an ?organization? of any type that will give me kudos and make sure members know my name and what I gave and when? does not mean I don?t. I know that my Father who is in the heavens will repay me: He always does? pressed down and overflowing. Every time.?

Great!
My earlier comment: ... or cause even a moment of love between two people ...
?You've made me smile, as I just thought of those I love? who love me? and with whom I had the privilege of being taught love? by my Lord. They are many... and some are even here... observing this interchange between you and I. And given their usual "MOs"... you'd be surprised...?

Excellent!
My earlier comment: ... they are an insult to our humanity, and a grand waste our time. I would rather spend a thousand days helping to feed the hungry than waste even one hour pondering the meaning of faith.
?Then I would say to you: Foot, be about YOUR work? and do not be concerning yourself with mine. ?

I wasn?t ? I was speaking about those who make special spiritual claims and ignore intellectual honesty ? so, if the shoe fits ? wear it.
As Jesus said that he came to cause not peace, but to bring a sword ? so I bid everyone war and division in accordance with Jesus stated purpose.

I said that to illustrate how anyone can take any provision in the Bible and make it their signature ? but is that What God wants? Until he tells me, I just don?t know.

I find it all, Simply Amazing

Intellectual Honesty vs Spiritual Claims

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