George Bush's Vietnam

by WhyNow2000 35 Replies latest social current

  • WhyNow2000
    WhyNow2000

    That's what Sen Edward Kennedy of Massachusetts called it.

    Do you agree?

    WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. senators argued on Wednesday over whether the conflict in Iraq was becoming another Vietnam and some Republican supporters of President Bush suggested he consider extending a June 30 deadline for the handover of power there.

    "I think we would be wise to re-evaluate the June 30 deadline. There are so many unanswered questions, not the least of which is to whom will we be turning over power," said Republican Sen. Susan Collins of Maine.

    Her comments echoed those recently made by one of the Senate's most powerful Republicans, Senate Foreign Relations Committee Chairman Richard Lugar of Indiana.

    With spiraling violence, Collins said it "suggests strongly to me that this is not the time to be drawing down our troops unless we can replace them with troops from other countries."

    In the last three days, 35 American and allied soldiers and at least 200 Iraqis have been killed in the heaviest fighting since the fall of Saddam Hussein nearly a year ago.

    U.S.-led forces battled Sunni Muslim guerrillas and a spreading Shi'ite uprising, as Iraqi anger was inflamed by a U.S. bombing of a mosque compound that witnesses said killed 25 people.

    Arizona Republican Sen. John McCain called comparisons between Iraq and Vietnam "totally false." But he said more troops were needed "because we haven't got sufficient troops to pacify the divisive elements in Iraq."

    McCain, who was a prisoner of war in Vietnam, said Iraq was different from Vietnam because there "is desire on the part of the people of Iraq to have their own democratic government ... and we have the capability militarily and politically to prevail and we did not in Vietnam."

    But Democratic Sen Edward Kennedy of Massachusetts said, "Vietnam ended up in a quagmire. Iraq is as well."

    In a speech on Monday, Kennedy called Iraq "George Bush's Vietnam," referring to the war that drove Lyndon Johnson from the presidency.

    West Virginia Sen. Robert Byrd, a Democrat who has been one of Bush's harshest critics, said deploying more troops "will only suck us deeper into the maelstrom of violence," and the Bush administration "should instead be working toward an exit strategy."

    Sen. Joseph Biden, a Delaware Democrat, said increasing violence in Iraq "is communicating a similar fear to the American people" that he saw after Vietnam's 1968 Tet offensive -- that "we don't have control there, we don't have a plan."

    Biden said the situation could be salvaged if Bush acted quickly to get the United Nations and NATO involved in Iraq's transition to sovereignty.

    "I think that the president needs to produce a plan to ensure that we know exactly what it is that we're transitioning to. We don't have that today," said Senate Minority Leader Tom Daschle, a South Dakota Democrat.

    Senate Armed Services Committee Chairman John Warner, a Virginia Republican, said the June 30 deadline must be met "irrespective of the increased insurgency, because I feel that it affects the credibility of the coalition forces and, particularly, the United States and Great Britain." (additional reporting by Thomas Ferraro and Jackie Frank)

    Copyright 2004, Reuters News Service

  • shamus
    shamus

    It's nice to see some american politicians disagreeing with the war.

    Extremist religions + America = bad bad news.

  • LucidSky
    LucidSky

    I didn't agree with the pre-war handling -- or the lack of post-war involvement for the world community. But I don't think it has been disasterous yet. Only time will tell if terrorism takes its toll.

    LS

  • WhyNow2000
    WhyNow2000
    But I don't think it has been disasterous yet.

    What would you call it?

  • ThiChi
    ThiChi

    Analysis: A mini-Tet offensive in Iraq?

    By Arnaud de Borchgrave
    UPI Editor at Large
    Published 4/6/2004 4:12 PM

    WASHINGTON, April 6 (UPI) -- Any seasoned reporter covering the Tet offensive in Vietnam 36 years ago is well over 60 and presumably retired or teaching journalism is one of America's 4,200 colleges and universities. Before plunging into an orgy of erroneous and invidious historical parallels between Iraq and Vietnam, a reminder about what led to the U.S. defeat in Southeast Asia is timely.

    Iraq will only be another Vietnam if the home front collapses, as it did following the Tet offensive, which began on the eve of the Chinese New Year, Jan. 31, 1968. The surprise attack was designed to overwhelm some 70 cities and towns, and 30 other strategic objectives simultaneously. By breaking a previously agreed truce for Tet festivities, master strategist Gen. Vo Nguyen Giap in Hanoi calculated that South Vietnamese troops would be caught with defenses down.

    After the first few hours of panic, the South Vietnamese troops reacted fiercely. They did the bulk of the fighting and took some 6,000 casualties. Vietcong units not only did not reach a single one of their objectives -- except when they arrived by taxi at the U.S. Embassy in Saigon, blew their way through the wall into the compound and guns blazing made it into the lobby before they were wiped out by U.S. Marines -- but they lost some 50,000 killed and at least that many wounded. Giap had thrown some 70,000 troops into a strategic gamble that was also designed to overwhelm 13 of the 16 provincial capitals and trigger a popular uprising. But Tet was an unmitigated military disaster for Hanoi and its Vietcong troops in South Vietnam. Yet that was not the way it was reported in U.S. and other media around the world. It was television's first war. And some 50 million Americans at home saw the carnage of dead bodies in the rubble, and dazed Americans running around.

    As the late veteran war reporter Peter Braestrup documented in "Big Story" -- a massive, two-volume study of how Tet was covered by American reporters -- the Vietcong offensive was depicted as a military disaster for the United States. By the time the facts emerged a week or two later from RAND Corp. interrogations of prisoners and defectors, the damage had been done. Conventional media wisdom had been set in concrete. Public opinion perceptions in the United States changed accordingly.

    RAND made copies of these POW interrogations available. But few reporters seemed interested. In fact, the room where they were on display was almost always empty. Many Vietnamese civilians who were fence sitters or leaning toward the Vietcong, especially in the region around Hue City, joined government ranks after they witnessed Vietcong atrocities. Several mass graves were found with some 4,000 unarmed civil servants and other civilians, stabbed or with skulls smashed by clubs. The number of communist defectors, known as "chieu hoi," increased fourfold. And the "popular uprising" anticipated by Giap, failed to materialize. The Tet offensive also neutralized much of the clandestine communist infrastructure.

    As South Vietnamese troops fought Vietcong remnants in Cholon, the predominantly Chinese twin city of Saigon, reporters, sipping drinks in the rooftop bar of the Caravelle Hotel, watched the fireworks 2 miles away. America's most trusted newsman, CBS' Walter Cronkite, appeared for a standup piece with distant fires as a backdrop. Donning helmet, Cronkite declared the war lost. It was this now famous television news piece that persuaded President Johnson six weeks later, on March 31, not to run. His ratings had plummeted from 80 percent when he assumed the presidency upon Kennedy's death to 30 percent after Tet. His handling of the war dropped to 20 percent, his credibility shot to pieces.

    Until Tet, a majority of Americans agreed with Presidents Kennedy and Johnson that failure was not an option. It was Kennedy who changed the status of U.S. military personnel from advisers to South Vietnamese troops to full-fledged fighting men. By the time of Kennedy's assassination in Nov. 22, 1963, 16,500 U.S. troops had been committed to the war. Johnson escalated all the way to 542,000. But defeat became an option when Johnson decided the war was unwinnable and that he would lose his bid for the presidency in November 1968. Hanoi thus turned military defeat into a priceless geopolitical victory.

    With the Vietcong wiped out in the Tet offensive, North Vietnamese regulars moved south down the Ho Chi Minh trails through Laos and Cambodia to continue the war. Even Giap admitted in his memoirs that news media reporting of the war and the anti-war demonstrations that ensued in America surprised him. Instead of negotiating what he called a conditional surrender, Giap said they would now go the limit because America's resolve was weakening and the possibility of complete victory was within Hanoi's grasp.

    Hanoi's Easter offensive in March 1972 was another disaster for the communists. Some 70,000 North Vietnamese troops were wiped out -- by the South Vietnamese who did all the fighting. The last American soldier left Vietnam in March 1973. And the chances of the South Vietnamese army being able to hack it on its own were reasonably good. With one proviso: Continued U.S. military assistance with weapons and hardware, including helicopters. But Congress balked, first by cutting off military assistance to Cambodia, which enabled Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge communists to take over, which, in turn, was followed by a similar Congressional rug pulling from under the South Vietnamese, that led to rapid collapse of morale in Saigon.

    The unraveling, with Congress pulling the string, was so rapid that even Giap was caught by surprise. As he recounts in his memoirs, Hanoi had to improvise a general offensive -- and then rolled into Saigon two years before they had reckoned it might become possible.

    That is the real lesson for the U.S. commitment to Iraq. Whatever one thought about the advisability of Operation Iraqi Freedom, the United States is there with 100,000 troops and a solid commitment to endow Iraq with a democratic system of government. While failure is not an option for Bush, it clearly is for Sen. Edward Kennedy, D-Mass., who called Iraq the president's Vietnam. It is, of course, no such animal. But it could become so if Congressional resolve dissolves.

    Bui Tin, who served on the general staff of the North Vietnamese army, received South Vietnam's unconditional surrender on April 30, 1975. In an interview with the Wall Street Journal after his retirement, he made clear the anti-war movement in the United States, which led to the collapse of political will in Washington, was "essential to our strategy."

    Visits to Hanoi by Jane Fonda and former Attorney General Ramsey Clark and various church ministers "gave us confidence that we should hold on in the face of battlefield reverses."

    America lost the war, concluded Bui Tin, "because of its democracy. Through dissent and protest it lost the ability to mobilize a will to win." Kennedy should remember that Vietnam was the war of his brother who saw the conflict in the larger framework of the Cold War and Nikita Khrushchev's threats against West Berlin. It would behoove Kennedy to see Iraq in the larger context of the struggle to bring democracy, not only to Iraq, but the entire Middle East.

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  • SixofNine
    SixofNine
    It would behoove Kennedy to see Iraq in the larger context of the struggle to bring democracy, not only to Iraq, but the entire Middle East.

    It would behoove GW Bush to see Iraq in the context of it's reality, not what he wishes it would be. Further, it would behoove GW Bush to see democracy in the context of history, as a movement that comes, by definition, from within.

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    It's true that the vietnam war was lost on this side of the ocean, on the political field. The british fighting the boer war were losing some where around 50 per day. Yet, they persevered and prevailed. Of course, the general british public was kept largely in the dark about war progress.

    One thing that is the same in these 2 wars (iraq and vietnam) is that they are based on bullshit. Maybe warmongers need to be honest w their people from the start. Then, if they get their support, they would be more likely to keep it. Another possibility, if honesty was used from the start, is that there would be no war on iraq at all, afghanastan, maybe, pakistan & saudi arabia, that's where bin ladin and taliban are from, arent they? Maybe all the cards could be laid on the table for the american public to see and decide what hand to play with whom. Hey, that's kinda democratic, isn't it?

    SS

  • Farkel
    Farkel

    : That's what Sen Edward Kennedy of Massachusetts called it.

    : Do you agree?

    No. Kennedy is a lying asshole and his argument is a strawman. We were in Vietnam for a decade and we lost 56,000+ people. We've been in Iraq for a year and we've lost 500 people. Moreover, the opposition is nothing like it was in Vietnam. In Vietnam, most of the populace wanted us out of there. In Iraq, most of the populace wants us to STAY and fix their country.

    Kennedy is an old, bitter and burned out LOSER who couldn't form a good argument if his life depended upon it. After his "magical" acquittal for his Chappaquidick murder, he thinks he can get away with anything. Kennedy's are like that.

    Even Capitol Hill considers him to be a joke. Only the liberal press will give him the time of day.

    Farkel

  • ThiChi
    ThiChi

    Farkel, how do you really feel about Kennedy? (lol) Good points.....you da man!

  • WhyNow2000
    WhyNow2000
    We were in Vietnam for a decade and we lost 56,000+ people. We've been in Iraq for a year and we've lost 500 people.

    Well, more US troops have died in Iraq in one year since the US war began than were killed during the first three years of the US war in Vietnam.

    Kennedy is a lying asshole and his argument is a strawman.....Kennedy is an old, bitter and burned out LOSER who couldn't form a good argument if his life depended upon it. After his "magical" acquittal for his Chappaquidick murder, he thinks he can get away with anything. Kennedy's are like that.

    Even Capitol Hill considers him to be a joke. Only the liberal press will give him the time of day.

    Thank you for sticking to the point.

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