Is the WTs God's chosen or a phoney? PROVE IT!

by fearnotruth22 27 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • little witch
    little witch


    If the tower's version of god is truth, why are you asking us?

    Why would you doubt absolute truth?

  • bebu

    This is what I find the MOST astounding:

    Part of the transcript from the 1954 Douglas Walsh trial in Scotland. Hayden C. Covington is being questioned...

    Q. You have studied the literature of your movement?

    A. Yes, but not all of it. I have not studied the seven volumes of "Studies in the Scriptures," and I have not studied this matter that you are mentioning now of 1874. I am not at all familiar with that.

    Q. Assume from me that it was promulgated as authoritative by the Society that Christ's Second Coming was in 1874?

    A. Taking that assumption as a fact, it is a hypothetical statement.

    Q. That was the publication of false prophesy?

    A. That was the publication of a false prophesy, it was a false statement or an erronious statement in fulfilment of a prophesy that was false or erronious.

    Q. And that had to be believed by the whole of Jehovah's Witnesses?

    A. Yes, because you must understand we must have unity, we cannot have disunity with a lot of people going every way, an army is supposed to march in step.

    Q. You do not believe in the worldly armies, do you?

    A. We believe in the Christian Army of God.

    Q. Do you believe in the worldly armies?

    A. We have nothing to say about that, we do not preach against them, we merely say that the worldly armies, like the nations of the world today, are a part of Satan's Organization, and we do not take part in them, but we do not say the nations cannot have their armies, we do not preach against warfare, we are merely claiming our exemption from it, that is all.

    Q. Back to the point now. A false prophesy was promulgated?

    A. I agree that.

    Q. It had to be accepted by Jehovah's Witnesses?

    A. That is correct.

    Q. If a member of Jehovah's Witnesses took the view himself that that prophesy was wrong and said so he would be disfellowshipped?

    A. Yes, if he said so and kept persisting in creating trouble, because if the whole organisation believes one thing, even though it be erronious and somebody else starts on his own trying to put his ideas across then there is disunity and trouble, there cannot be harmony, there cannot be marching. When a change comes it should come from the proper source, the head of the organisation, the governing body, not from the bottom upwards, because everybody would have ideas, and the organisation would disintegrate and go in a thousand different directions. Our purpose is to have unity.

    Q. Unity at all costs?

    A. Unity at all costs, because we believe and are sure that Jehovah God is using our organisation, the governing body of our organisation to direct it, even though mistakes are made from time to time.

    Q. And unity based upon an enforced acceptance of false prophecy?

    A. That is conceded to be true.

    Q. And the person who expressed his view, as you say, that it was wrong, and was disfellowshipped, would be in breach of the Covenant, if he was baptized?

    A. That is correct.

    Q. And as you said yesterday expressly, would be worthy of death?

    A. I think - - -

    Q. Would you say yes or no?

    A. I will answer yes, unhesitatingly.

    Q. Do you call that religion?

    A. It certainly is.

    Q. Do you call it Christianity?

    A. I certainly do.

    Here is the page with more of the transcript:


    PS: If you are interested in a copy of the complete trial it can be obtained from - The Scottish Record Office, H.M. General Register House, Edinburgh, Scotland. Ask for the Pursuer's Proof of Douglas Walsh vs. The Right Honourable James Latham Clyde, M.P. P.C., as representing the Ministry of Labour and National Service.

  • herk

    The WT Society is phony because:

    • Instead of teaching Christianity as a way of life, it teaches that Christianity is an organization.
    • It claims that salvation is completely dependent upon membership in the JW organization.
    • It claims that the organization speaks for and is controlled by Jehovah, thereby equating the organization with God himself. Any disagreement with the organization is punishable as a disagreement with God.
    • It centralizes authority in an organization instead of letting Christ be the head of each Christian.
    • It distorts Jesus' teaching about the "faithful and discreet slave" by claiming it is an "anointed class" rather than each individual Christian who shows himself or herself to be responsible and obedient to Christ.
    • It teaches that the early Christians were led by a governing body, a teaching that is false.
    • It teaches without a shred of evidence that Jesus appointed the "anointed remnant" as his true church in 1919.
    • It pompously claims that the so-called "anointed" class (actually, the governing body) is God's channel and prophet. In addition to being without scriptural backing, this teaching exposes the Society's pharisaical view of itself.
    • While claiming that it follows the Bible, it unashamedly places WT literature and policy above the Bible in all of its teachings.
    • It frequently takes Bible texts out of context in order to build support for the organization's man-made teachings and procedures.
    • It teaches that Jesus returned in 1914 and is "invisibly present" since then, whereas the Bible clearly teaches that every eye will see Jesus and the angels following him when he returns.
    • It teaches that Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 BCE when no historical records confirm this and the actual date is believed by nearly all historians to be 587 BCE.
    • It lies about the fact that Charles Russell predicted for 1914 the end of the world, not Christ's return.
    • It deceptively lies about a so-called "increase" in earthquakes, warfare, famines, persecution, etc., since 1914.
    • It condemns military organizations and frowns upon JWs who choose alternative service in lieu of military service while the headquarters organization at the same time owns stock in a military product organization (REGI).
    • It has taken a conflicting stand with regard to the United Nations, claiming that it is the "wild beast" of Revelation that leads all nations in a fight against God and Christ at Armageddon, but signed on as an NGO member and published articles that present the UN in a favorable light.
    • It whimsically teaches that it's wrong to celebrate birthdays and holidays while permitting the celebrating of wedding anniversaries.
    • It contradicts Jesus' teaching by claiming that Abraham and the faithful men and women of old are not among the holy ones who will be joint heirs with Christ in his Kingdom.
    • It interprets hundreds of Jewish restoration prophecies as fulfilled in "the anointed remnant" or in itself.
    • It teaches that the Scriptures are directly addressed only to "the remnant of anointed ones" and not to other Christians.
    • It teaches that only the "anointed" must be born again.
    • It teaches that only certain members of the Society are begotten or anointed by the holy spirit, excluding even the "great crowd" membership of the organization.
    • It teaches that the "great crowd" are not members of the bride of Christ.
    • It teaches that Jesus is the mediator between God and the "anointed" members of the Society but not between God and any others, including the "great crowd" membership.
    • It teaches that the resurrection of the "anointed" precedes the resurrection of the "other sheep" and that it has already begun.
    • It teaches that only "anointed" JWs will receive immortality in the resurrection.
    • It invites only the "anointed" to partake at the memorial whereas Jesus commanded all his followers to "do this in remembrance of me."
    • It claims that spiritual food comes from the "anointed" class whereas nearly all the writers of WT publications are members of the "other sheep" class.
    • It creates a climate of fear among its membership by its practice of authoritarianism.
    • It controls what individual JWs may read of Bible-related publications that are not produced by the WT Society.
    • It arrogantly pretends that the JW organization maintains higher standards than any other religion and proclaims publicly that all other churches are false as members of Babylon the Great.
    • It forbids attendance and participation at other churches.
    • It fosters class distinctions such as "governing body," "anointed remnant" and "great crowd of other sheep."
    • It maintains class distinctions such as publishers, auxiliary pioneers, regular pioneers, special pioneers, circuit overseers, district overseers, Bethelites, Governing Body, etc.
    • It prohibits women from serving in any meaningful role in the congregation while expecting them to do the bulk of the work in "field service."
    • It constantly prods the membership by means of literature, meetings and conventions to do ever more and more in the service of the organization, promoting an atmosphere where many feel their best is never good enough.
    • It sets dates for Armageddon and thereby urges the membership to abandon normal living, this often resulting in the ruination of health and family life, as well as creating employment and financial hardships
    • Its teachings lead the members to believe righteousness and salvation can be earned by devoted and loyal support of the organization's slavish programs.
    • It keeps meeting attendance and field service records as a gauge of an individual's spirituality.
    • It organizationally requires no blood transfusions instead of letting it be a matter of conscience, thereby cruelly informing all members that they will be shunned by the organization if they accept a transfusion that might restore health following a life-threatening accident or illness.
    • It unhesitatingly allows infants and children to die instead of permitting them to have necessary blood transfusions.
    • It teaches that the "congregation" of Matthew 18:17 is the body of elders.
    • It holds heresy trials and disciplinary hearings in secrecy from the rest of the congregation.
    • It withholds information that would be helpful to persons who have been accused of wrongdoing.
    • It conducts heresy trials of members who have doubts or who think differently upon the Scriptures.
    • It defines apostasy as against the organization instead of against God.
    • It is quick to disfellowship instead of making sufficient efforts to restore persons who have done something wrong.
    • It unnecessarily and abusively shuns members even for minor infractions such as smoking or not complying with the whimsical directives of elders, thereby causing personal and family turmoil that often results in immense guilt, shame, fear, depression, bitterness, hatred, murder and suicide.
    • It prohibits fellowship with disassociated persons who show no inclination toward causing dissension.
    • It shows favoritism by advising innocent victims to "leave it to Jehovah" instead of the elders taking decisive action to deal with some members who have been accused of harmful wrongdoing.
    • It minimizes and even ignores clear evidence of child molestation and other abuses simply because only one witness is available to testify against the member accused of such serious wrongdoing.
    • It covers over and hides damaging facts about the JW organization from the public and even from governmental authorities.
    • It neglects in many cases the care of its own sick and elderly members who no longer have the strength and energy to attend all the meetings and to be regular in "field service" as they did for most of their lives.
    • It blatantly lies to the public by declaring to news media that members may leave the organization at any time, of their own free will and without any repercussions from the organization.
    • Etc., etc.


  • bebu


    That was a great list. This is one that goes into the hard drive.


  • avengers
  • hooberus
    herk said:

    It should be carefully noted that Hippolytus was not consistent in his teachings on the Trinity. At one time in his life he was against the Trinity as taught by the church of Rome and the church was against his ideas on the Trinity.

    Do you have a reference for this?

    At another time he was in favour of what the church taught. He also taught that Mary conceived the Father, not the Son!!! I think both the WT and the trinitarians are making a mistake by referring to him as a source of early Christian belief.

    Do you have a reference for this? I believe that Hippolytus was opposed to those (such as Noetus) who held this doctrine.

      Against the Heresy of One Noetus. 209

    1. Some others are secretly introducing another doctrine, who have become disciples of one Noetus, who was a native of Smyrna, 210 (and) lived not very long ago. 211 This person was greatly puffed up and inflated with pride, being inspired by the conceit of a strange spirit. He alleged that Christ was the Father Himself, and that the Father Himself was born, and suffered, and died. Ye see what pride of heart and what a strange inflated spirit had insinuated themselves into him. Froth his other actions, then, the proof is already given us that he spoke not with a pure spirit; for he who blasphemes against the Holy Ghost is cast out from the holy inheritance. He alleged that he was himself Moses, and that Aaron was his brother. 212 When the blessed presbyters heard this, they summoned him before the Church, and examined him. But he denied at first that he held such opinions. Afterwards, however, taking shelter among some, and having gathered round him some others who had embraced the same error, he wished thereafter to uphold his dogma openly as correct. And the blessed presbyters called him again before them, and examined him. But he stood out against them, saying, "What evil, then, am I doing in glorifying Christ? "And the presbyters replied to him, "We too know in truth one God; we know Christ; we know that the Son suffered even as He suffered, and died even as He died, and rose again on the third day, and is at the right hand of the Father, and cometh to judge the living and the dead. And these things which we have learned we allege." Then, after examining him, they expelled him from the Church. And he was carried to such a pitch of pride, that he established a school.

  • BluesBrother

    As has been said, , the onus is on the WTS to prove its presumptuous claim to be the only channel and FDS, not for us to disprove it. .. But here is my two penny worth anyway.

    Deuteronomy 18.20 22


    "?However, the prophet who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded him to speak or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die. 21 And in case you should say in your heart: "How shall we know the word that Jehovah has not spoken?" 22 when the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak. With presumptuousness the prophet spoke it. You must not get frightened at him.?
  • run dont walk
    run dont walk

    the bible is 2000 years old (give or take), it's laws and ideas have stood the test of time.

    God is Love, his laws never change

    but the watchtower is 125 years old, and the rules are always changing,

    Name ONE, publication they have written (1879-1994), that has stood the test of time, and did not need to be updated or revised.

    there might be a handful, but most, are forgotten, and inaccurate, would God publish false information for any purpose.

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