What Are Your Rights?

by Simon 121 Replies latest jw friends

  • LoveUniHateExams

    I invite anyone to give an example of an attempt at a Libertarian state that succeeded - not sure about Libertarian states but I can give examples of successful capitalist states that have regular fair and free elections ... Germany, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Switzerland, Japan, South Korea, Singapore ...

    And now I invite anyone to give an example of an attempt at a socialist state that succeeded () ...

  • Spoletta

    You may note that I never said that a true socialist country was a good idea. That's why I said a Democratic Socialist country (like Sweden and Norway) works.

    In a purely Libertarian or Socialist society, you can't prevent those with an unfair advantage, and no scruples, from coming out on top. That's also why pure capitalism can't work, when those whose parents made a fortune through honest (or dishonest) work, can be as indolent as any so called "freeloader", and reap the benefits of someone else's industry.

    So, nice attempt at strawmanning me, but I will gladly provide rebuttals to your cherry picked arguments all day long.

  • redvip2000
    The problem with the Libertarian concept of rights, is that it could only work in a society where everyone is fair, honest, and empathic. Otherwise, the unscrupulous or righteous (take your pick) will end up on top, leading to feudalism.
    That's right. And the thing is this... let's not confuse basic human rights with the wellness social net that governments put in place to maintain a baseline of survival.
    So, we can say "well, healthcare is not a human right". Right, it's not, but neither is unemployment insurance. Anybody wants to get rid of that? If you do, then you're an idiot, because you should understand that even if you are smart enough to save for when you don't have a job, there are droves of morons walking our streets that live paycheck to paycheck. So unless you wanna see misery around you, unrest, looting, and other human chaos, you understand why it's needed.
    The question is then if healthcare should be part of the portfolio of things we as a society already provide to the ones that are barely scraping by. Or are we going to say "if you don't make enough to buy insurance, or somehow can't afford it, then tough luck, just suffer and die". I doubt that's the answer...
  • LoveUniHateExams

    That's why I said a Democratic Socialist country (like Sweden and Norway) works - Sweden and Norway are successful capitalist countries.

    They're at where they're at because of capitalism done responsibly. This allows their electorate to navel-gaze and vote for democratic socialist parties.

    (Although Sweden has slightly deteriorated thanks to its Democratic Socialist government's immigration policy.)

    Thank you for being in favour of successful capitalist countries.

    Edit: nice attempt at strawmanning me - I wasn't. I was just asking a question about socialist countries.

    I asked this because you posted that Venezuela wasn't a true socialist country ... this begs the question: what is a true socialist country?

    Hint - it's not Sweden or Norway. XD

  • blondie

    Here is a list of self-proclaimed in their constitutions as being socialist countries. So is can be subjective.


  • nonjwspouse
  • hybridous

    If people are too untrustworthy to leave to their own devices in a libertarian society, how could they be trusted with the powers of the levers of government in a socialist society?

    Are they somehow not going to use them to serve their own interests?

    Where do we get these angels from?

  • Nathan Natas
    Nathan Natas

    Hybridous is right!

    If people in general STINK, what makes a person who is a Socialist smell like a rose? ...and I'm not talking about perfume!

    The list of Socialist leaders who were recognized for their humanitarianism is brief; non-existent. Shall we expect the acolytes to outshine the masters?

  • sparky1

    National Socialist German Worker's Party (Nazi's) - We know how that turned out!

    U.S.S.R. : Union of Soviet Socialist Republics - We know how that turned out!

    "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."

    No thank you. I'll live with imperfect capitalism until something better is contrived.

  • Spoletta

    This is why I accuse you all of strawmanning. There has never been a truly Socialist country. Just because some dictator calls himself a Socialist does not make his country Socialist. North Korea calls itself a Democratic Republic. The US is a Democratic Republic. Are both the same?

    Do I need to write a list of all the failed Democracies in the world? What do they have in common with most countries that call themselves Socialist? Corruption, not ideology. Why should I even debate you, when you call a country something that it's not, and then claim it's an example of the failure of the principles that it's not following? Sorry, but that's strawmanning.

    There are plenty of countries that combine the more positive aspects of Socialism and Democracy, and benefit from it. Since you'll ask for an example, look up Kerala, in India.

    It might interest you that there have been elected Socialist leaders in the past in South America that haven't brought their countries to ruin, but you'll never hear it from the right.

    Do some real research, it might do you some good.

Share this