The Trinity in the Old Testament (page 7)

herk

Trinitarians claim they do not believe in three Gods. They say they believe in only one God in three Persons. Put another way, they say they believe there are three Persons in the Godhead. Some of them say this is suggested in the Hebrew word for God, namely, elohim. This is a plural noun that nearly always is accompanied by a singular verb when it refers to the God of the Bible. Now, most Bible scholars say that this plural for God, elohim, is a Hebrew noun that stresses intensification. They say elohim is not a numerical plural as claimed by some trinitarians, but it is an intensive plural. Being an intensive plural, elohim denotes God's greatness and uniqueness as the sovereign God who is far above all others who are worshipped as gods.

But suppose these trinitarians are right. Suppose elohim is a numerical plural. What does that then indicate? Does it prove there are three Persons in the one God? Not at all! Elohim is not the plural word for "person." It is the plural for "God." So, these trinitarians are unwittingly claiming that they do indeed worship three "Gods," not three "Persons" in the one God!

herk

hooberus

Most informed Trinitarians read genesis 1:26 etc. the way it appears in the Bible. From the language used "Let us make" combined with other passages which only state man being made in God's image (ie. Genesis 1:12; 5:1; 9:6), they conlude that Genesis 1:26 is probably teaching plurality of persons with in the one God (See also James 3:9). Informed Trinitarians read the Genesis account as refering to only one God.
"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." Genesis 1:26
Note the plural "our image", "our likeness" Yet from other verses it is clear that man was created in Gods image and likeness (singular).
"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." Genesis 1:27
"This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;" Genesis 5:1
"Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man." Genesis 9:6
"Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers? " Malachi 2:10
Based on other passages which show that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, all participated in the making of man, they conclude that they together are the "us" spoken of in Genesis 1:26.
"The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life." Job 33:4
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." John 1:1-3

herk

fearnotruth22

Herk: I have retired as champion from Trinity discussions. I have concluded that people want to believe in the Trinity, I am not going to waste my time anymore in that discussion. I refer them to the Trinity brochure which completely presents the case. Let them decide. If they still like the TRinity heathen nonsense, then let thenm believe what they like.

You know there are still people today that worship the gods of Egypt. The very same giods that YHWH mocked and proved to be that they were trash. What a joke. What a waste of time. I enjoy your cartoons. Herk If Jesus would come back and tell these guys that there was no TRinity thaey would not belive that He was Jesus. If God spoke from heaven saying that He was no Trinity, these gus would say it was Satan. Lets face it Trinitarians will tell God that he is a trinity no matter what God says.

herk

If Jesus would come back and tell these guys that there was no Trinity they would not believe that He was Jesus. If God spoke from heaven saying that He was no Trinity, these guys would say it was Satan. Lets face it Trinitarians will tell God that he is a trinity no matter what God says.

So true.

herk

fearnotruth22

THanks for the thosands of words heck.

hooberus

There are thousands of instances in the Bible where God speaks of himself as "I," "me" or "myself." Why do you give priority to a mere few verses -- a few verses where God says "us" and "our," and then proceed to suggest that those few verses mean God was wrong those thousands of times when he spoke of himself as "I," "me" or "myself"? You are so caught up in your biased view of the two words "us" and "our" in the first part of Genesis that you don't realize what the vast majority of biblical texts -- thousands of them -- are trying to tell you.

Trinitarians believe that God has revealed himself in a progressive manner through scripture, beginning with Moses, and then through the prophets, and finally in the New Testament. We therefore expect that a primary emphasis in the Old Testament will be that YHWH is the only God. Trinitarians believe the thousands of biblical texts that refer to God speaking of himself as "I" , "Me" , and "Myself" as Robert Morey says:

"If the authors of Scripture believed there was only one God, how could they express this idea in the Hebrew language? The only way, in terms of Hebrew grammar, was to use singular nouns, pronouns, adjectives, verbs and adverbs in reference to God. Thus, they would refer to God as "He," "Him," and "His" and describe God as saying, "I," "Myself," and "Me." Both Unitarians and Trinitarians would expect to find the authors of Scripture using such words in reference to God." Robert Morey The Trinity: Evidence and Issues p. 90

Trinitarians also expect to see in the Old Testament some evidence of composite unity within the one true God YHWH. As Robert Morey says:

"But, if they also believed that God was multi-personal, the only way this idea could be indicated in the Hebrew was to use plural nouns, pronouns, adjectives, and verbs. They would also refer to God as "They," "Them, " and "Theirs" and describe God as saying, "We," "Us, " and "Ours." "Robert Morey The Trinity: Evidence and Issues p. 90

We expect this evidence of composite unity to be seen in other Old Testament passages, and more fully revealed in the New Testament.

hooberus

Every writer of the Old Testament was led by the holy spirit, but that spirit never led them to become trinitarians. None of them viewed or addressed God as a trinity. But you want us to believe that you have a sharper insight than they had. You see a trinity in what they wrote even though they did not.

Trinitarians are not implying that the Old testament Jews used the word "trinity", nor that they had the fully revealed doctrine in Old Testament times. Trinitaians believe that the term "trinity" and the doctrine of One God in three persons is an accurate description of God as revealed in the complete scriptures. Trinitarians believe that the Old testament does contain foundational concepts supporting the Trinity, such as One God, and strong suggestions of plurality of persons within the one true God. Other Old testamnet passages support the deity and personhood of each member.

Trinitarians thus believe that even in the writings of Moses that indications of composite or compound unity within the one true God do exist. Once again we do not necessarily believe that there is a full revelation of the Trinity in the Old Testament in sense that the New Testament gives. This is similar to other scriptural doctrines which are foreshadowed in the Old testament and more fully revealed in the New Testament.

The Trinity in the Old Testament

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